Malcolm Stern: 0:46

So welcome to Slay your Dragons With Compassion that my podcast, which is run in conjunction with online events, and I'm really pleased to have today a really great friend who has done some amazing work in the world, which we'll talk a little bit about, and also about his journey to arrive at a place where he is making some great changes for people in an extraordinary environment. So today my guest is Roger Tempest, who calls himself a custodian rather than the owner, but he is the owner of and custodian of, broughton Hall, which is a 3000 acre stately home and some wonderful things are happening there, including rewilding projects and extraordinary conferences and a wonderful sort of like retreat environment which I've had the pleasure of going to a number of times. So, roger, welcome to our show here today.

Roger Tempest: 1:40

Thank you, malcolm, looking forward to our chat.

Malcolm Stern: 1:43

Lovely, that's great. We've done chats before together as well, which is really nice to revisit this as well. So I'm really interested in what you've done. I mean, you could very easily have been sort of like a sort of like a sort of like a feckless lord of the manor and just sort of like hung out in this beautiful stately home and, you know, pounced around, but in fact you've been doing extraordinary things. Perhaps you could tell us a little bit about your vision of Broughton and what's happened, and then we'll look a little bit later at what's happened in terms of your inward state. That's actually sort of asked you to go to that environment.

Roger Tempest: 2:22

Yeah, I mean to start with it's what came to mind just to me just then actually my mum, whose birthday it was yesterday, but she's passed a couple of years ago and I was just thinking. I remember her talking. She worked for Mother Teresa for most of her life and quite in depth with her and remarkable work, and it just Mother Teresa's quote I think it was by her anyway which said God gave us the gift of life and what we've become is our gift to God. And whatever your religion or whatever, it's just quite powerful to do that. And you know, I was born in this particular situation where 32 generations of the same family had sort of homed into this place in the back of Yorkshire and, you know, bringing it into the 21st century.

Roger Tempest: 3:19

It's this sort of alchemy has occurred there and from it being a sort of you know it was, yes, you know hierarchy, yes, you know feudal in a way and all these sort of different you know sort of attributes through history. But in fact we've been sort of surviving there and hopefully contributing to society in many ways. But suddenly in the 20th, you know the 21st century, there's so much change. You know what's breaking down and what's breaking through on every level. You know, I suppose suddenly Broughton is alive to that, very much alive to it, and the irony is we're all about the future, this 3000 acre beautiful bit of land and a very historic house at the centerpiece of it, 97 rooms, you know, pretty big. But we've adapted it to sort of take into account what's happening in society, what's happening to the world, what's happening to humanity. And we've been on this alchemy, alchemy, I'm not sure the word alchemy.

Roger Tempest: 4:21

How chemical journey and and it's sort of a really beautiful journey and it sort of comes from the heart really. And yes, there's been a lot of privilege, you know, in one way, although we've certainly suffered over the years, you know, my father was shot in the head in the war, my grandfather was bombed in the psalm. You know we were, you know we've had pretty serious situations throughout history. But with privilege becomes responsibility and you know, there's this sort of this turning point which I'm very interested in and sort of being brought up, especially through my mom, which I've been really aware of this last couple of, couple of days.

Roger Tempest: 5:05

You know, privilege comes with responsibility and to be, to be a force for good, and you know, I think it's a beautiful thing to be in a I love the St Francis thing, you know, and giving you receive, you know, sort of a whole mood of things and you suddenly realize, oh my God, what you can do, where I'm coming across a bit. I'm not some Christian missionary, I'm purely quite a universalist. You know, in many, many ways, and I just, you know this this what we can do in the world is rather, you know, rather remarkable. I'm fascinated, you know, I'm 60 years old now and I want to be of help and be a bonus to the world and not a drag, and that leads on to many issues.

Malcolm Stern: 5:46

And you already are. And, in fact, interestingly, what you were saying reminds me of Rabindranath Tagore's little three line saying, which is I slept and dreamt that life was joy. I woke and found that life was service. I acted and behold, service was joy. And I really see the pleasure you have in the creation which we'll talk a little bit more about, in the creation that you've managed to make in this corner of Yorkshire, in this beautiful home which is home to lots of different projects now. So perhaps you can tell us a bit about what you're doing abroad.

Roger Tempest: 6:19

Well, some of the main things I mean. A week before COVID we launched as aiming to be the leading, you know, uk retreat centre. That was our aim and so we built Avalon and Avalon means an island as spiritual refuge, as you probably know, and that's a sort of state of the art well being centre. And then we, you know, we have the 130 beds and all this sort of thing. So we were going to be a retreat centre a week before COVID. So we had loads of retreats, joining and booked in and suddenly COVID and everything cancelled. So it was pretty.

Roger Tempest: 6:56

It was a tough time. I remember for three months I got a little baby too. I had to work to midnight every day for three months. You know everybody else in England. It was, you know, a very, very serious issue and but anyway we came out of that and we're doing sort of about 50 retreats a year now and they vary, you know, from path to love, hop and process, all this sort of you know work, residential, usually a week and obviously a good self and and so we're really into the retreat world and trying to personal transformation journeys and we're very interested in the content. So, whether we have Tommy Rosen from Recovery 2.0, or we have Peter Levine, you know, for Trauma. Or we have David David Mitten you know whoever it is. You know the content is very wide and it's very beautiful.

Roger Tempest: 7:48

But alongside all that, we've got a lot of different projects running, so, and they vary quite, quite, quite extensively. I mean, one of them is a major environmental project. So we decided the time is over for industrialized farming, in effect, and the 3000 acres we wanted to make, we went on a nature recovery journey and we've recently, we nearly planted 400,000 trees in the last three or four years, and, you know, to help with the flooding, the biodiversity and then the farmland. Our aim is, you know, there's many ways of farming and we've decided on the nature of friendly way of farming. So you know, we don't want vaccines, hormones, fertilizers, antibiotics, you know chemicals, all this sort of thing, and so we've gone in a very clean form of farming. So the whole land is changing at the same time, and that nature recovery project, in effect, and the semi-rewilding is, I suppose it's an external form of what we believe should be happening internally. So you've got the outer nature and then you've got the inner nature, and so we're huge believers that the, you know, nature is this amazing antidote and, you know, vital for human existence, and it's been disregarded for too long, would be our opinion and so its effect on inner nature has been disconnected for too long. And so our inner nature. We really want to make sure those inner nature, outer nature, goes in the same way as in another way, not to be too controversial, but you know, life has become extremely polarized and the outer state seems to have dominated and we seem to have lost our way in terms of our inner state. So I don't want to be too philosophical, but that's the sort of essence of some of the projects we're doing.

Roger Tempest: 9:49

And to add to these projects, you know, we're clustering really interesting projects. So something like Weird Organization, which does sound a bit weird, but Weird is our old, you know, ancestral tribal name, wyrd, and the Weird Organization came from. It was started in Princeton University, princeton University, and it was about the calibration and of consciousness and how consciousness affected material objects. And we've got a project set up at Broadham which is very active and it's sort of beyond the AI really. So we're birthing as many sort of ideas around the whole sanctuary.

Roger Tempest: 10:33

And one thing I didn't really mention before is that we decided to rename, because this journey is fairly extensive, of how the change is happening on a place you know, this 3000 acre bit of land in the back of Yorkshire. We decided that Broadham Sanctuary is a more accurate definition of what we're about, because we want to be this sanctuary and this sort of force for good, this little jewel and hopefully this little jewel string with many other jewels throughout, you know, throughout the world, and we're sort of doing, essentially doing our bit to say, you know, if we can do it, you know, what can other people do? You know there is great, you know there's hope, but hope needs to be put into action. So so, all in all, all the projects we're doing, we're essentially a retreat center for personal transformation and Andrew Harvey, who's, I think, the most beautiful person in terms of articulating spirituality, was, I think you, you sort of remember it a bit grand, but you're saying it's a sort of broad and can be a maternity ward for the birthing of a new humanity.

Roger Tempest: 11:45

And I know that sounds a bit, you know, a bit dramatic, but the idea is, you know there that you know each individual in life can do things to, you know, change the course of how we live in our communities and whatever. And as you see, in the world at the moment there's so much anger and, you know, sort of engine houses of hate really all over the world, in any shape or form, however it comes, whether it's war or you know a single individual activism or whatever.

Malcolm Stern: 12:18

And I just think if we can be as this sort of fulcrum and this sort of holding space, you know, in a beautiful way, I just think it adds to life and this potential of rebirthing of humanity Sounds a bit dramatic, but Well, no, I can certainly see and I've known you a number of years and it was really interesting because we met when I was working for schools, for headteachers in Yorkshire, and you were arranging to have a meeting in London and I said, I said where do you live?

Malcolm Stern: 12:49

And you said skips and I said, well, I come to skips and three or four times a year. So I've been staying with you when I've been doing that and I've watched your, I've watched the progress of Broughton Hall and been very inspired by what you've created there. But I'm also inspired, roger Buddy, the depth of work I mean you talked about through the pandemic, work until midnight. It feels to me like pandemic or no pandemic. You work your butt off and it's like as you've got the fire. It's not a religious zeal but it's a zeal for doing your bit for humanity and that's what I can see. And what I'm interested in is what led you to that place, because it well, clearly your mother has been an influence.

Malcolm Stern: 13:29

I mean what you've described about her with Mother Theresa. Of course, I knew about all that as well, but so she's been an influence, but what is it that's had she had you go? This is how I want to use this precious life I'm living.

Roger Tempest: 13:45

It's. I mean, I've influenced by your work, malcolm, too, and I've obviously read your books and being. You know all that you've done with founding, you know co-founding, whatever it was, of alternatives, and you know all these things and I think you know we're probably in the same piece in the same pod in a way, in terms of you know, you know, recognize that you know there is crisis in society on so many levels environmentally to, you know, on every level. Really it's a pretty. You know it's tricky. And then there's beauty. You know there's beauty within life. But I feel I just feel an urgency of, I've always felt an urgency which I felt I could help with. And whether that's come from you know my maternal influences or you know we were a persecuted family, we were Catholic heritage, we were recusant, so we got hung, drawn and courted for our faith. And then you know dad was part of in April 1945, part of the British Army, rescuing concentration. You know concentration camps and you know who's at Nuremberg trials. It was absolutely.

Malcolm Stern: 14:57

I didn't know that.

Roger Tempest: 14:58

yes, and you know what he witnessed was, you know, unbelievable. It's just, you know it's hard to even, you know, imagine. And so you know, I think, from being in a privileged position too, at times we I give a talk, sometimes called Snow on the Billiard Table, which sounds a bit ridiculous, but we have this big historic house and it did snow on the billiard table and it's sort of. We were wrapped up for dinner in coats and putting antifreeze down the loo and all that sort of thing. It was pretty.

Roger Tempest: 15:39

It wasn't all privileged, to be honest, but we are very lucky and I don't know, I just the beauty of in giving, I just feel really delighted to it, and Paris, my partner, is very like-minded, honest, and we just get enormous pleasure of the work we do. And it's not easy and it takes financial risk, it's a huge commitment but it's very, very rewarding and I just feel we are part of this movement of change and it has to come from somewhere. It's down to the individual, like this quote about the individual affects the family, or your partner, and your partner affects your outer family, and the outer family affects the community and community affects the world. And so for me it's a very natural thing to do. I'm not sure I get it right all the time at all, I can tell you that, but it is a philosophically I'm a great believer. It is a sort of it probably is connected with a sort of religious. Further, I suppose I'm in very much universalist, value the human constructs which try to sort of put together all these religions and different things. I respect them. But beyond all that, I think the connection with God can I feel quite immediate, without having to put it in too much of a box, and I'm fascinated.

Roger Tempest: 17:20

We have this annual conference called Visions for the Future and we get 60 thought leaders together and which I know you know about, and whether it can be Rupert Sheldra, it can be people like Bruce Deyma, whoever, it is incredible people, spiritual people and no cross-section. It's a wide cross-section. At the end of it all, there's four or five days of discussing what's happening in life and what's happening to humanity, and it's residential. We spend a lot of time together and it's amazing what, at the end of the day, it comes down to what the individual can do in life and what they can give and how they affect life.

Roger Tempest: 18:01

And I think, personally, I think we've been fixated by the polarizations and the outer state and these sort of. I regard them as slightly delusional ideas of, say, communism or some far, this sort of totalitarian aspect of how to run life. And I think I'm not advocating any politics. I think we should rise above politics and it should be rise above the polarizations and find this beautiful space between where we got this common existence and I know it's of tolerance and love and all that sort of thing. And people think, oh, that's hippie heaven. Well, actually I don't believe it is. I think personal responsibility coupled with community effort, plus plus, plus plus, there's a recipe where, as humanity, we can really live together.

Roger Tempest: 18:53

And I think there's definitely a lack of visionaries out there at the moment. There's voices appearing from everywhere in small ways and some amazing people who are sort of percolating up, but how they can rise above some of the existing political institutions, who? It's a hard battle and I think, but there's a movement, there's definitely a movement coming forward, but I think there's a lot of distractions. It's like we've been invited at Broughton Sanctuary to do some, you know, some sort of civil disobedience work type thing, training groups, and we've said we've actually said no, you know, we're looking for harmonious things which create more harmony, and through love and through you, know. But that doesn't mean you can't confront the difficult issues, but it's true.

Malcolm Stern: 19:49

And I remember, I remember in alternatives we had Joanna Macy, who's a wonderful, wise woman and was the co-founder of Deep Ecology, and now in her 80s, maybe even 90s now, and the last time she spoke in alternatives she said we are entering a new age, this is the age of the great turning. We don't know whether this will be the end of humanity and that we're actually sort of like we're an experiment that has passed its time and something else will happen and take its place, or whether we're going to evolve and become what humanity needs, which is very much what you seem to be talking about. And she said one level it doesn't matter what happens, but we have to invest in the possibility of a better world. And I can really see that you are throwing your energy into that as well, and I think it's part of what keeps us young. I'm 74 now and you're 60. We're two old gents having a chat. Yeah, we are.

Malcolm Stern: 20:49

Like we're not playing golf.

Malcolm Stern: 20:51

But I think we're not exactly, but what I see it's interesting. I went to my school's 53 union in 1968. And what I saw was that three quarters of the people I've gone to school with were old men, but some of them weren't. And the ones who weren't the ones who had passion, the ones who had a drive to make a difference in the world, even if it was a drive to make money in their case. But my sense is, you're not driven by a material want or need. What you're driven by is a sense that something is needed and you want to play your part in that, as do I.

Roger Tempest: 21:29

Yeah, 100%. And I was just thinking this little haven of Broughton Sanctuary, 3,000 acres, a couple hundred buildings. We built this sort of community. We have 50 companies based there in old buildings, heritage buildings and things who are silver cross, prams and things like this. So we built a sort of modern economy alongside a community of people. So we sort of create this sort of I don't know, it's metaphoric field that people come and plug in, whether it's for coming for a retreat or a holiday or enjoy the nature of recovery or whatever it is. You know they're plugging in. And then we're restoring architecture, we're creating arts, we're creating, you know, education, all these things.

Roger Tempest: 22:15

And what I'm trying to say is that it's I'm not saying it's, say, modern utopia, but it's a possibility. You can get this coexistence of a community which sort of has this equilibrium between culture, economy, social, you know, and is it possible to do that? And I think we're sort of proving that it is possible. And then some things like the weird organization which specializing consciousness is something a bit odd. But then we also have an addiction center and then we have, you know, all these things and we're in the back of rural Britain and yes, there is a pub and yes, there is a church and yes, there is a little school and things like this, and it's sort of you know, if it's possible, there there's sort of creating this particular community. You know, can you replicate it? And you know it's a regeneration and I think humanity is permanently reforming and regenerating. And what you're saying about Macy, you know it seems to be the roots which. Where are we going to go?

Roger Tempest: 23:17

You know I want to go on the extreme, you know, nuclear, just bomb. And there's this, you know, a copilates, and you know it's absolute, dramatic. Or are we going to find a way through it and, you know, have, create this new Garden of Eden in a way, and suddenly realizing, you know we really do have these options in life. Do we want to be angry people and causing death and destruction or do we want to just get this? You know, realize, you know, if you give, you know life is a gift and give and create and be, you know like in a family situation, you all have to be, you know you all have to take everybody in the family into consideration and hopefully come up with a, you know, a way of living.

Roger Tempest: 24:02

And I suppose that choice is sitting there now with humanity. And are we you know we're talking about old men I was thinking, are we as two individuals sitting here and are we replicating the thought of previous generations at our age, thinking, oh, we're a bit depressed about the world? And are we the real realists? And you know, in the old days, people of age, I mean we still got a bit to go, but you know there'll be the wisdom keepers and they'll be respected. And you know, with the modern, you know the modern. The last hundred years, with the politics of everything you know, have we lost that? You know wisdom and that respect for the learning? Have we forgotten about history? Have we? I?

Malcolm Stern: 24:46

think these things get shrouded, and I think you're right. I think if we look at the political arena and look for guidance there able to lie, cheat, steal, the sort of the new sort of like alternate truth or something like that it's like it's a very different world than the world I started life in. But then we can look at the people around who are making a difference and it's like these little pockets of springing up and there'll only be hope that actually there are people who are willing to actually go. I want to do my bit in the world. I want to play my part Because, according to the old Hindu philosophy, we are in the age of Kali Yuga. We're in the age Today.

Roger Tempest: 25:28

Oh, really Is it? Oh, my God, it's celebrations.

Malcolm Stern: 25:31

Yeah, oh God, Okay, Well that, and it's a time when we're in a time of ignorance. But apparently the world goes in cycles and every 20,000 years, or whatever it is, the next cycle comes on. So the golden age will come next, where we do live more honestly, I mean these simple practices we could have to be more alive in who we are, speaking authentically caring, being giving, loving, meditating, sort of taking time to calm ourselves and tune into our inner voices. These are the things that are starting to make a difference. It's small and it's easy to get overwhelmed and go. You know we are living in hell, we watch wars around us and we watch terrible suffering around us, but we have to keep contributing to the potential vision that sits in front of us as well.

Roger Tempest: 26:22

Yeah, 100% with you. And I think the I mean in terms of back to Mother Teresa at one stage I remember talking about she was more concerned about the spiritual poverty of the West than the. You know, the city of joy in Calcutta, and I don't know whether that Dominic Lapierre book you've read city joy. I don't know whether you read it, but it's. You know the but yeah, it's. Yeah, each one of us, you know, if we individually contribute, each drop in the ocean, you know, adds up it does.

Roger Tempest: 26:59

Adds up.

Roger Tempest: 27:00

But I mean the psychology of, because I know you're from reading, you know your books on, you know the psychological status as humans and you know there seems to be a need for a remarkable amount of tools and maybe AI is gonna help us with therapeutic use, and I'm on an advisory board for Mines in America for the use of psychedelics for therapeutic use and relationships to.

Roger Tempest: 27:36

You know addiction to all these things and you know that it feels like this new era that we need to reflect on ourselves and where we've got to. And I think what I do notice I put it very simply that when I looked at our land at Broughton Sanctuary 20 years ago, I can't believe I was sort of so ignorant of the. You know, the first, like the glyphosphate, the, this, the that, the hormones, what we're doing to the stock. You know just, and now I see it, but I hadn't seen it before and it's like in the whole world, what else is like that, you know? And suddenly the human brain seems to oh yeah, I get it now. But I was lost and you know, now I found it.

Malcolm Stern: 28:28

And what's great is that you don't have a missionary zeal. You're doing your thing and people come and drink in the results of what you've done. One of the things I love about Broughton is that it's not obviously it's a beautiful and expensive place. It's, like you know, magnificent food and lovely environment and a spa and all the rest of it. But you've also hosted things like compassionate mental health conferences, which I was part of, and it was just so beautiful to see people who are normally you know a lot of people who've been in the mental health system, been victims of horrible treatment in some cases, but being nourished and actually drinking from the fountains that you provide at Broughton.

Malcolm Stern: 29:15

And I love what you say about nature. I know I was saying some of the other day. One day I was feeling really flat and depressed and I forced myself to get out into nature and, without realising it, after I'd been out for about half an hour in the forest and was luckily I live nearby that sort of stuff I realised that my spirits had been lifted, that nature had actually had an impact on me. There's a wonderful. I don't know if you've read the Overstory by Richard Powers. No, it's about the secret life of trees. It's a novel and it's about eco-terrorists effectively. So what explains in this is how trees communicate and we don't recognise this and fantastic consciousness out there in nature as well. I worked for a while for Greenpeace and I watched the dolphins and the whales were sublimely evolved beings and we've got all this around us.

Roger Tempest: 30:09

And fungus and mushrooms.

Malcolm Stern: 30:11

And fungus. Of course yes, Cosmo Sheldrake. Yes.

Roger Tempest: 30:19

But, yeah, absolutely. And I mean at Broughton we've done this. We've just created this thing called Odyssey, which is a journey of mind, body and spirit over 30 kilometres and it has activated points from screaming fields to all sorts of different things. But we've had a couple of two or three people well, three people I know have come to Broughton and they've just broken down in tears Because they said you know, why wasn't this here before? I mean, it's like, so what we're doing is actually unfolding something which is inevitable in a way, and I suppose you know all the things we do. You know whether we have moonbars and sweat lodges, and you know woodland saunas, and it goes on and on, cosmic gardens, and you know they're all sort of places where people can, you know, interact and you know, within nature. And who has not been for a walk and never felt better at the end of it? So, yes, green prescriptions, I think you know the NHS should just have them at all times. You know, it's just.

Malcolm Stern: 31:36

You know Well some time ago, when I was at Broughton, I did something called forest bathing, which I'd never heard of before. I've actually gone to Broughton and it's quite a big movement apparently. But we were led through the forest and in turn noticing different things. So the first I think the first exercise was noticing the very small things, so you take time to be in the forest and observe that. The next was slowing down and seeing what you observe when you move in a much slower pace, and I love that experimentation with nature. And again, when I came out at the end of it I felt absolutely refreshed and renewed.

Roger Tempest: 32:14

Isn't it good. And what I love is when we have the retreats. At the end of a retreat, people if I'm around, you know whatever, because I'm pretty active there they just come up to me and, just you know, will say my life's changed or I've got over something, or it's so rewarding. It's just you know just the change. And there aren't enough places. You know where you can do that. It's very, very you know it's not enough and hopefully they'll build these light centers or whatever you like to call them. They'll quietly build and then people do have a refuge.

Roger Tempest: 32:53

And you know, because it's hard. I mean I know you're part of a sharing group men's circle, I think, and you know I do a men's circle and Paris, you know my partner does a women's circle too, and they're so valuable, they're just sort of you know what you share. You just you know people, people can, without judgment, can you know it's done in a particular way and it's such a beautiful thing. And you know retreats, obviously extension of that, but professional people can help people in their lives because you know, if you want to carry the world on your shoulders and do nothing about it, you know it's a tricky life probably.

Malcolm Stern: 33:33

Well, we're practicing structures that help feed the soul. I mean, what we're seeing is an interesting and given in the rise and fall of the Roman Empire talks about one of the features for the fall of the Roman Empire was the breakdown of the family unit, and what we're practicing, as we observe the breakdown of the family unit here as well, we're observing also that we're having to create alternate family units. So we're having to create what I've talked about, so your dragons, with compassion, as the Buddhist term of Sangha, and we need others around us of light mind so that we can have the strength to carry through and do what it is we are meant to do. And James Hillman, the psychotherapist, talks about, and each one has inside us a diamond, d-a-e-m-o-n, and that will drive us nuts until we do the work we were born to do. And I can very much see you're doing the work you were born to do, roger, and it would be so easy for you to be a pompous ass and you're so, not that, yes, yeah.

Roger Tempest: 34:35

I hope not.

Malcolm Stern: 34:37

No, you're definitely not, and it's something very lovely about that. And actually there's a. There is a humility in the midst of all that you're doing. There is also a humility there, a recognition that something bigger than you in play.

Roger Tempest: 34:49

Yeah, without a doubt, and I mean being of service is a real. You know, that's the ultimate privilege really. Yeah, really, we live in a lovely house, a three bedroom house. We don't live in the main hall, or you know you all today, everything, yes, but what do you call this? I was interested in thinking about what would you call this movement. You know, in the terms of light in Scotland or wherever it started, the enlightenment movement sort of came over a 20, 30 year period, but its name came afterwards, I think. And I just wonder, because I know you've been involved 100% with alternatives to everything. You've seen all the major players in this transformational world. I mean, how would you see this movement? Because I haven't put a name to it yet, but I know it exists and the like minded it's a wide spectrum, but there's something consistent in it.

Malcolm Stern: 35:47

I mean, we used to call it the New Age, but I think that has been so hackneyed now and I think also there are so many people who are who profess spirituality, who are actually sort of like, who are sort of not grounded. So I think there is something that's being, and I think maybe it's. I'd be interested to find a name for for this.

Roger Tempest: 36:07

I think it deserves a name.

Malcolm Stern: 36:09

I think it deserves a name but I think it deserves a proper name, not a sort of a flaky sort of like, sort of like a New Age sort of name.

Roger Tempest: 36:16

But New Age was sort of a forerunner. I mean, I sort of compare it to the technology where you know, when Apple 2e computers came out in the 80s or whatever and software and apps and all this sort of thing, and oh you know, calculator, at school I didn't have a calculator and then the last year, I think, they came in or whatever. And I was just thinking that you know, this whole movement is, it's actually very, still very juvenile and small.

Roger Tempest: 36:44

But there's something there's a mental of which you can just feel under the surface. And you know, as we get retreat up to retreat, sometimes 100 people you know whatever, 60, you sort of you know witnessing, and I mean I'm in Bali at the moment and you know the amount of people out here with a different, different sort of work going on. Or you know there's something you know it's just X. It feels like we go exponential. Yes.

Malcolm Stern: 37:11

Well, it's interesting, you know, because it's like when I was first involved in a spiritual psychological search in my life, I was in my late 20s, early 30s, and at that time yoga was weird, vegetarianism was for hippies.

Malcolm Stern: 37:28

And life has changed and I think we are seeing, very gradually it's very easy to see all the horrors that are out there in the world, but I think we're also seeing, very gradually, the nourishment that we're able to provide for ourselves and each other. And I'm, you know, my biggest thing I realized. The most important chapter I wrote in my book was the chapter on Sangha, because I so believe it's like the I Ching says until we reach a certain stage in our evolution, not only do we have a need for the support of others of like mind, we have a duty to seek that support, and I think there's something there about that. Actually, we are learning to band together, we're learning to become brothers and sisters rather than using each other to develop our selfish aims, and so we're coming towards the end of that. I mean I could chat to you for hours, roger, and I so appreciate you coming on this show.

Malcolm Stern: 38:22

I feel it's been beautiful what we've done today, but I'd like to read you because this was in my mind, as you were talking before about. So this is a piece that I've used in my book from George Bernard Shaw, and it's about purpose. So I'd like to read that, just so that this is, in fact, to back up a lot of what you've been talking about today. So, if you will, you will bear with me for a couple of seconds. I'll do that.

Malcolm Stern: 38:52

This is the true joy in life the being used for a purpose, recognized by yourself as a mighty one, the being a force of nature, instead of a feverish, selfish little clot of ailments and grievances, complaining that the world would not devote itself to making you happy. I am of the opinion that my life belongs to the whole community and as long as I live, it is my privilege to do for it whatever I can. I want to be thoroughly used up when I die, for the harder I work, the more I live. I rejoice in life for its own sake. Life is no brief candle. For me, it is a sort of splendid torch which I have got hold of for the moment, and I want to make it burn as brightly as possible before handing it on to future generations.

Malcolm Stern: 39:41

Whoa, that's really good that is lovely, but you've been saying pretty much that in what you've been speaking about as well, and I think that is part of the energy that drives us forward. It's so easy to become depressed and to sort of go the world's a terrible place, rather than seeing that actually there's regeneration as possible and it's happening at a very organic, simple level. But hopefully it will ignite, and the 100th monkey theory is that when enough people have that consciousness, the world will change.

Roger Tempest: 40:12

Yeah, that's beautiful. That's right, because it's an important Hindu day. Today In Bali, there's a lot of ceremonies going on. It reminds me of it. I think it's a Hindu quote and it's very simple. It goes all that is not given is lost.

Malcolm Stern: 40:31

All that is not given is lost.

Roger Tempest: 40:33

That's lovely If we're finishing off. I thought it was a rather nice one.

Malcolm Stern: 40:36

That's a great quote, you're going to shore.

Roger Tempest: 40:38

in a Hindu quote you can't get a better than that.

Malcolm Stern: 40:41

Maybe you'll spell as you're with a Hindu after all, but anyway, thank you so much for coming on here and for taking part. I've really enjoyed the engagement with you and I enjoy the passion you bring to the work that you do as well. Roger, so really good to see you and we will catch up soon. We'll speak soon anyway, so we'll catch up soon.

Roger Tempest: 41:01

Thank you, thanks, malcolm.

Malcolm Stern: 41:03

Thank you.