Malcolm Stern: 0:47

So welcome everyone to our podcast Slay your Dragons With Compassion, and this is a series we've been running for a while now in conjunction with online events, and we're looking at Slay your Dragons With Compassion. We're looking at what have you had to overcome to become who you are and what does your life look like and what have been the turning points in your life and how have you had to grow. In that Just a small bit to stick into the podcast, but we'll find out whatever comes out of that.

Malcolm Stern: 1:19

So I'm really happy to welcome a good friend of mine again today, chris Waters, and she specializes in shamanism and she is what I would call a wise elder um, not too old, chris, but um anyway a sort of, but a woman who is actually sort of like a very, a very sort of solid and powerful path. So, chris, can you tell us first of all how you got into the work that you're doing?

Chris Waters: 1:47

how I got into, uh, healing. First of all, is because I had a crisis. You know, um, I I have got this incredible ability. I think, uh, along the way, when I get off track, somebody or something puts me back on track and in, in a way, um, it happened to me when I was 18 and along came a person who, out of the blue, who suddenly started to tell me about, um, theology and spirituality, and and he had this ability to connect things. That, um 18 years old, I had no idea, but I'd been afraid of myself, I'd been afraid of the abilities that I had, you know, the voices in my head and the things that I saw and the things that I felt, and I shut everything down and I found myself at this time. So I was 18, 18, 19 years old and I was in Spain because I was studying for a degree in languages at that time, and I met this person just by accident happened to be staying in somebody's apartment, that who was also on the same floor, and he, yeah, he just guided me back to my spiritual self, because I it would have been so easy for me to shut everything down and live what I would call a tiktok life, you know, just doing what everybody else is doing and fitting in and doing whatever I've. You know, I saw everyone else doing and that had been, and still has been to an extent, part of my journey. So along he comes, he starts to show me things about spirituality, religion and the connection between the two. He was from Argentina and I think at that time he'd escaped Argentina because people were being think. At that time he'd escaped Argentina because people were being disappeared. At that time there was a government there that was just taking people and putting them in prison and they were never seen again. So I think that's why he ended up in Madrid. Anyway, he taught me loads of things and then he disappeared. It was almost like he was there specifically to to pull me back onto a spiritual path and a healing path, and I've had people like that in my life over and over again. Um, every time I get off track there's somebody who shows up and it's like this is the next piece of your journey. So I'm really grateful to those what I call earth angels. They show up, they're there for me, they teach me things and then they move on. They, they somehow disappear. I don't know where they go, but they're there. For that reason it feels to me they're there. For that reason my healing path began. Because of that.

Chris Waters: 4:51

I think I had a crisis in my 30s and it was another situation where I was doing lots of different jobs. I was married to somebody who had a lot of depression. So he got a job and then he was made redundant. And then he got another job and he was made redundant and it was like this kind of thing. And he got another job and it was made redundant, and it was like this kind of thing, and I was saying yes to every job that I could find that was offered to me, because I wanted to kind of keep the boat afloat, keep the wolf from the door. And that was my fear. My biggest fear was I would not be able to do that, you know, to any health. The burden of all that landed on my, literally landed on my back, and I found myself flat on my back for 16 days. I couldn't move. I was in absolute agony.

Chris Waters: 5:48

And along came somebody who was a healer and he started to do reflexology and taught me a lot about why it wasn't just a physical thing, it was an emotional, mental and spiritual thing, and he showed me again there's another path I could take. Instead of this being the perfect mother, the perfect wife, the perfect daughter, the perfect everything. It's like you know, you're being shown something here and and you are a healer and you need to be doing this. So he put me back on track and I started to um, to really then focus on my healing path. And, yeah, I came out of most of the part-time jobs that I was doing and decided to focus on reflexology, which was what I learned. And then I realized some people could heal and some people couldn't. So then I understood that the mind affects the body.

Chris Waters: 6:52

So I went looking for psychotherapeutic modalities to help people and all the time, malcolm, I was helping myself, you know and then I realized that it wasn't just the mind that's affecting the body and and people's well-being, it was also something about the soul's journey. And so I began and this was the scary thing because I began to think what I needed to do was to find people who were on a different journey, a soul's journey, and open up that envelope, if you like. That I wasn't aware of consciously, and so that was when I created an organization called Lifetimes and, from nothing, I started to bring workshop leaders to Reading, where I live, and, in the process of offering that to others, I also benefited hugely from the experiences, from the things that they offered the opening up of life, voice work and psychodrama, and also the things that you taught Malcolm and dance. And you came to Reading, I remember and dance. And you came to Reading, I remember, and what I was doing was literally putting out a magazine every month saying this is what we're doing, and then also inviting other therapists and other people in the healing profession to advertise in this little magazine. That ended up something like 8,000 copies every month, which was was a huge task, but I did it from nothing, because there was a calling in my soul to grow and to evolve, and this was the way it was offered to me, I guess.

Chris Waters: 8:42

And then eventually I thought, oh, I'm doing the thing I'm supposed to be doing, this is my destiny. And then it all tumbled in. My relationship was in a terrible state and everything was falling apart. So then somebody offered me a book that Alberto Villondo had written, shaman Healer Sage. And then I went and explored what it meant to be a shaman, what actually was this, and when I went to America to train and it was, oh, this is home, because for me this was the last piece in the puzzle.

Chris Waters: 9:23

So it was about energy work, how we can affect the energy body of a person and it ripples down through all the other bodies and, yeah, but I had to overcome so many obstacles, malcolm, in the process of doing that. I didn't have any money. I didn't have what I needed. It was, you know, it was a difficult time, but again, people showed up to kind of point the way in a way. So that's how I came to be doing what I'm doing now. But it's been a 40. What am I 72 now? So I started all this in my 20s, late 20s.

Malcolm Stern: 10:04

That's a lot of years of you know on track off track on track, off track so, but there was a calling, and I think that that's something I've seen pretty much through a lot of these podcasts is that a lot of us get awakened through some sort of calling. It's like we're trotting along in our normal everyday way and then something happened often, often adversity, often ill health or loss yeah, a time when things really take off and have a shift. Also, I think one of the things that I picked up in what you were just saying is that we often think, oh, I've got it now, I've cracked it. All we're doing is seeing the next mountain peak that we've got to climb and, as far as I can understand, it goes on forever.

Chris Waters: 10:48

Yes, yeah, I think that's absolutely true, because you get to a place and you think, yeah, this is it, and then something else comes along to help you to. You know, I call them another. I'm pardon my language, but it's another fucking growth opportunity. You know, um, I'm going through one now as well. You know, my partner is very ill, have been diagnosed with um, with myeloma, which is, you know, not an easy thing to recover from um, and and so you're throwing these opportunities to grow rather than to let them destroy you. You know which they could. You know easily, I think that you know easily.

Malcolm Stern: 11:31

I think that's the thing, isn't it Either? And I think for some people, these opportunities or these situations come along, these sufferings come along and they destroy us, but we, it's almost like there's an invitation to find more resources inside ourselves to deal with this and I wasn't going to raise your partner unless you did, and you have.

Malcolm Stern: 11:52

So right now you're in that, you're in a place and often when you're with someone who's really sick, they're going to get a lot of the attention both from you and others, and then you at the side is sort of, like you know, is having to dig really deep, yeah, inside yourself. Yeah, ask how you're dealing with your partner. What's your partner's name?

Chris Waters: 12:13

again, peter peter, can I, can I ask?

Malcolm Stern: 12:15

how you're, how you're dealing with um very badly, I'm honest.

Chris Waters: 12:24

You know, yeah, it's, I'm, it's very up and down in a way, but I'm so grateful to all the things I've learned along the way. You know the shamanic practices, the way that what I teach now is what I'm having to go through. So I can't teach something I haven't experienced and it was when he was diagnosed. It was in January and I had to teach an Easter class, which is all about death and dying and letting go and surrendering, and my class. They were brilliant because I'd be standing there teaching and then I'd start to cry because I'm in that.

Chris Waters: 13:10

I'm not detached from that. Let's say so it's, yeah, it's, it's. It is about digging deep and also honoring what you're feeling. You know, not putting away what you're feeling. And this is and this is one of the things that I'm so grateful for is the ability to yeah, to not say to myself I'm going to push this away because I don't like what I'm feeling. And Peter, he's got an incredible mindset and also an integrity around authenticity. So we can't hide things, you know. We can't pretend, and I think that's so important.

Chris Waters: 13:57

And I really admire him for that, because that you know, that's a big lesson for all of us really.

Malcolm Stern: 14:07

So what we're looking at is two fairly conscious beings going through a profound experience, not knowing where the experience is going to take you yeah, not knowing whether, if we look at this macrocosmically, we can look at the fate of the world and go we don't know what's going to happen to our, our planet and our species exactly back to the microcosm of your, your relationship, your long-term relationship with your partner, yeah, exactly.

Malcolm Stern: 14:32

You don't know where it's going and you don't know how you're going to wind up, but you're getting resourced and you're also using the resources you've already developed, which is very much what my book was about. How do we thrive?

Chris Waters: 14:44

in times of crisis.

Malcolm Stern: 14:52

So what do you see? If you were to name the things that you've actually been able to access through this, what would they be?

Chris Waters: 15:04

What resources? What resources? We don't know. We've got the resources until we have to use them.

Malcolm Stern: 15:07

We don't know. We've got the resources until we have to use them.

Chris Waters: 15:11

Yeah, I think, an incredible resilience, and I also think that it's about the reliance I have on the medicine path that I've walked. I would say faith and trust. But, having said that, this has really wobbled my faith and and also wobbled my faith in my own abilities to heal, um, and and also the trusting trusting the unknown, and and that's tough, but you're right, that's where we are in the world. It's a global thing. We don't know, you know, things aren't changing and things are crumbling around us. We don't know where we're going. And in order to manage all of that or navigate all of that, I think for me it's been about keeping my focus on, not the past, but who are we becoming, who do we really want to be? And every now and then that falls away and I go into panic and then I bring myself back into, yeah, into my breath, into my body, into this moment, because that's all there is and it's practice. It's all there is, you know, and it's practice, it's discipline, it is a discipline.

Malcolm Stern: 16:34

That's the thing you do. It's a practice, and that's what I'm seeing more and more in the groups that I'm running now is that we're not looking at the moment of great catharsis where you sort of like you jettison something out of your body. You're arriving at a place where you see what the practice is and then you're getting conscious about what happens next and it seems to me like and I've known you in a long time because we were both trustees- of the relatives for a long time and I've watched your practices as you've gone along the way, and one of the things I've noticed about you is that you have a kindness and an openness and I think that they are under, underrated, uh, parts of ourselves because we can look at.

Malcolm Stern: 17:13

Healing is, um, you know, will, will pete die, I, I don't know, yeah, but but that may not be what the healing actually means, and I think you'll be using your healing gifts regardless of the scenario yes, I think, and kindness and care, I think it comes from the heart and I, I think in my growing up I grew up in a family that was that didn't do emotions, you know.

Chris Waters: 17:47

They weren't on the table, nothing was on the table. So the gift in that for me was what I had to do. I was almost the conduit for everybody's emotion. So I, you know people would say to me why are you crying? And I mean, I don't know, I don't know. It's like being the conduit for that which was not spoken and then having to regulate that and work with that and understand that. You know it's all in the heart. It's not a mind thing, it's here in the heart where the mind can't actually feel. The heart feels and if you bring whatever's going on into your heart, that's where kindness lives, isn't it? And care, and it starts for yourself, of course, and then ripples out to other people. But um, if we're not kind to ourselves, then that's a difficult place to be and, of course, that's where where healing comes from as well.

Malcolm Stern: 18:44

But it'll come from the kindness that we employ in, in how we operate, rather than the, the brilliance we might think that we have. Yes, yeah, you've done a lot of work in, because I went with you to Peru for one of the trips you took there. I know you go regularly to Peru and work with shamans and I just wonder if you could tell us a little bit about that, that aspect of your path.

Chris Waters: 19:11

Well, yes, they the shamans that I love to work with are the carer, so they're from the high andes and they don't teach anything. That's what I love about them. They model care and kindness and connection to mother earth and presence, and they modeled that for me and I saw it as a. I suddenly felt as I worked with them, I suddenly felt a great deal of belonging to a tribe of people who really touched my heart. So, yeah, that's what they've done for me.

Chris Waters: 19:50

Of course, I don't want to go on about ayahuasca, but I've done ayahuasca and I've stopped taking people there now because it's become a thing you know, it's a badge you can wear and actually all the ayahuasqueros that we used to work with are now dead, are now dead and the reason, I believe, is because they were tempted to come to Europe and they were taken by people around you know to do ayahuasquera ceremonies and they took the plant out of the jungle and sold it and for me that was totally out of integrity. So I don't do it anymore. I just think consciousness has expanded to such an extent. We don't need things like that to open ourselves. We just need the practices and somebody who can guide you.

Malcolm Stern: 20:44

We need guidance as well, and you talked about, all the way along the way, that people have come into your life, and it's also true for me that people have come into your life, and it's also true for me that people have come into my life at the right moment. That brought guidance. Yeah, who knows where, from left field in many ways.

Chris Waters: 21:00

Yeah, exactly.

Malcolm Stern: 21:02

They do show up. We are not abandoned and alone as human beings on planet Earth.

Chris Waters: 21:08

We're really not. No, we're really not, and I think that's a really big lesson for everyone to know, because there are times when it feels like even the angels have turned their back on us and we're left, and this has happened to me. When I left my relationship and my children, it was so painful, it felt like everything had turned its back on me. My guidance, my angels, my you know, whatever I could lean back on had gone, and it threw me onto myself. It threw me into my own heart, onto myself. It threw me into my own heart.

Chris Waters: 21:55

But for a while it was so painful, malcolm, because it's the loss of everything that you know and, of course, it's a mini death, if you like. It's a death of the old you or the old me, and something new had to grow from that. But first of all, I had to grieve. Yeah, a friend of mine said she'd never seen somebody cry so much in all her life. But you know that that's the grief. That and the pain and the sorrow of not of having a relationship that couldn't make work and having to step away, uh, was the most painful thing I ever did and it helped me to grow.

Malcolm Stern: 22:30

I think one of the practices we have to embrace is is the willingness to grieve. We sort of see this, you know, strong, stoic sort of sense of being in the face of adversity as as a plus.

Chris Waters: 22:44

What I see is that the the capacity to let it break our hearts open yeah, where a lot of the healing comes as well oh, totally, totally get that, and I see that in my trainings as well. You know that the vulnerability that comes from that is beautiful and the thing that if you don't do it, um it, you get like brittle and harsh and critical of self and others, and that's a terrible place to be, you know, because it makes you judgmental as well of yourself and others when you're not willing to open your heart and let what's there be seen. And there's a humility in that, I think.

Malcolm Stern: 23:31

It's interesting because I I was looking at some the other day, at alternatives and and what I would say about the quality of the speakers we had there. This is the series that we ran as some james's, piccadilly and um, and and what I saw is that the, the teachers who really touched my heart were the ones who showed humility. It's quite easy to storm into a room and and sort of do a big I am act, but it'll get you to sort of like the level where you can get uplifted, pepped up.

Chris Waters: 24:00

It's not the level where people get really transformed no, I totally get that and I think that's one of the blessings of my life really, that I'm willing to go there because I've had to.

Chris Waters: 24:15

And I think it's really important that people who I train see that in me, that I'm not perfect and I, you know, I can cry with joy as much as with sorrow and when I see people in my you know, my training recently there have been there's a guy who he was in a terrible state when he came. He's been around the wheel, he's on his second turn around the wheel and he's writing songs and singing his heart. He's singing his heart and I sit there and I invite him to play, you know, in the mornings when we sit together and it makes me cry because that's so beautiful and from a guy, you know, a young man, to be able to do that, I think, is extraordinary and I would love to see more people come to that place instead of I've got to be strong and I've got to, you know, tune up, carry on, which is very english, isn't it?

Malcolm Stern: 25:17

it is, and it doesn't really serve us that well. It's like we put on a pretense that everything's fine. So every photograph you see people are smiling, yeah it's like, it's almost like it denies that the need we have to let our struggles be also part of who we are. Yeah, I, I don't really trust friendships until we've we've grappled a bit and that that actually sort of that strengthens it, rather than when things are all happy and lovely and clappy yeah, exactly, yeah, yeah, and it makes any relationship robust you know, and I think that's true with you know, if I go back to peter and I we've, we fought.

Chris Waters: 26:00

You know, in the beginning we fought like cat and dog. It was quite people used to say we're gonna pay to to watch you, you know. So we want tickets for this because this is awesome, because we would explode and you know it wasn't very nice, but it created a robust kind of vessel for this relationship. That means that you know, whatever we go through, we go through it together.

Malcolm Stern: 26:25

Yes, and that's a real blessing, even in the midst of the suffering that's obviously going on for both of you. Yeah.

Chris Waters: 26:31

And that's a real blessing, even in the midst of the suffering that's obviously going on for both of you. Yes, so dragons, you know my dragons have been around. Fear around, fear of being seen. You know that's another one that I think a lot of us in this field, if you like, have had, like fear of showing up, being seen, being vulnerable, all of those things, and I think I've had to work, all of those in my life and and that's where I am now and it, like you said, it's going to continue, it's not finished and it gives life meaning to to have those, those things happen for us, as to be able to encounter those difficulties and make the practices we need to take them.

Chris Waters: 27:18

Yeah, exactly, and that's the key to me, because if we don't have a practice, if we don't have something that we can lean back into, then we do feel we're on our own and we are alone, and that's a difficult place to be. So I would encourage anybody who's going through stuff to find somebody that they can walk hand in hand with for a while.

Malcolm Stern: 27:43

You know, just somebody that walks that path with you, not to fix you, not to make you better, but to just be there, you know one of the things I I realized when I when I lost my daughter is how blessed I was to have people around me who I could reach out to and not have to try and brazen my way through it on my own, and I think we underestimate the need for what I've called in in my book sangha, the company of what the Buddhists call Sangha, which is the company of others of like mind, and I think that you are blessed with that as well.

Malcolm Stern: 28:18

I've met quite a few of your friends and see that there's a solidity there that's around.

Chris Waters: 28:23

Yes, exactly Exactly that, I think it's. Oh, have I lost you.

Malcolm Stern: 28:29

Yeah.

Chris Waters: 28:31

I think it's so important and you know, malcolm, in a way I think that's why I create what I call villages people who support each other through whatever it is they're going through. We've all been wounded, we've all had stuff that's happened to us, and these tribes or villages support each other as they go around the medicine wheel so that they know there's always somebody there not to fix, but to just be there. And yeah, just understand that we're all in this together, literally.

Malcolm Stern: 29:11

We are and also this is not. I don't think this is an easy planet to be, to be oh tell me and and it's like this, then we have amazing experiences. I think it's a very tough thing to to live a life as a human being and to deal with what comes with us yeah, just ask you a little bit about um, just for those who don't, who don't understand it.

Malcolm Stern: 29:28

Um a little bit about um, just for those who don't, uh, who don't understand it. Um a little bit about the medicine wheel. What do you? What do you mean by that?

Chris Waters: 29:35

well, the medicine wheel is a map, if you like, of human consciousness, of the growth that we have, you know, from childhood through, uh, through life, all the way to death. So the medicine wheel itself allows us to deal with certain things along the way. So we have four directions. We go from the south to the west, to the north, to the east and then through the center of the wheel. So the south direction is all about dealing with our own personal wounds and transforming them, not wallowing in them, but saying, okay, yes, this did happen to me, I did go through this, but here's the gift that that brings, and I think we've all got a sacred wound. That is the gift that we eventually will bring to the world, once we've transformed it from suffering into personal power. Really. And when we get to the West, then we're dealing with our ancestral stuff. So the hand-me-downs that come from our ancestors, our parents, all the belief systems that we take on that may not be ours, we unpeel all of that.

Chris Waters: 30:52

Also, the karmic stories. What does it mean to be a man or a woman today? That's a karmic story. What does it mean to be a healer? What does it mean to be a person who helps others. You know there's there's a lot of backstory to that, so we want to unravel that.

Chris Waters: 31:07

And then we get to the north, having stripped away everything that doesn't serve us, then we can reclaim those parts of us that are our gift. Often by the north, people start to write poetry. I've had loads of students who've written books, who are artists, who have got art exhibitions all over the world. It's extraordinary what transpires from letting go of what no longer serves in a visceral way, not in a mental, conceptual way, but actually doing it. And so then we reclaim, and then when we get to the East, we let it all go, because that's about surrendering not less than everything. And so that really is a potted kind of thing around the wheel, and it is exactly the path that we take through life. You know, as a child we're connected to our family, our carers. Then we go out into the world and we start to be teenagers and we rebel against everything. Then we start to integrate the things that we've rebelled against and eventually we let go so I'm thinking, as you're talking about the medicine wheel and being a map of.

Malcolm Stern: 32:22

Actually, it's a bit like we're on a treasure hunt as human beings. There are different maps that can guide us towards whatever it is we're looking for. Father was really valuable to help me understand the nature of the duality of life and the medicine wheel I know that you've been involved with for decades yeah it's.

Malcolm Stern: 32:42

It's very much a part of your life and it will help you in your journey, but it will also help others, who you as well. Yeah, it's coming near the end of our, of our podcast together today and, um, it's been really lovely sort of dialoguing with you. If you were to say what's the the main dragon that you've had to slay in your life.

Chris Waters: 33:03

I know you talked about fear before, but, yeah, sort of like to see what, what sits there as the, as the big thing that you've had to to deal with and find your way past I think, yeah, I think probably the thing that most changed my life and I and I think that that's probably the essence of what we're saying here was the day that I understood that because I'm an empath as well, so I feel everything and the day I understood that I don't have to feel it all, that I could connect myself to Mother Earth and Father Sun and be held by these incredible forces of nature that have held me and still hold me. And I think, as an empath, it was very painful to feel everything that's going on, um, and I I mean for me, that was the hurdle I had to climb over to decide that it's not all mine, it's not all you know to decide that it's not all mine, it's not all you know it's.

Malcolm Stern: 34:16

Yes, I know that some people, you know they, they, they want to get rid of their empathic gifts because it's so painful. Oh yeah, no, it's a blessing yes, yes and a curse because, exactly, but it also is it's. You know, we wouldn't want to do without it, would we really?

Chris Waters: 34:28

no, no, because I couldn't do what I do if I didn't feel everything. But the difference is I can, I can have you know, I'm held by the forces of nature, so I'm inside that and nothing. You know, I can feel it, I can experience it, but I don't have to have it as my own. And, of course, if, if, as long as I've done my own work, then I, then I know what's mine and what isn't.

Malcolm Stern: 34:57

And that's the key, isn't it? We can't just go. Oh well, there's grace is shining on me and I can find my way through. We have to keep doing the work, and I know that you do the work.

Chris Waters: 35:07

Yeah.

Malcolm Stern: 35:08

And I wish you and Pete really well in this part of your journey. It's not easy to be around deep illness and suffering and fear of death and all that goes with that as well.

Chris Waters: 35:21

Yeah, thank you, malcolm, I really appreciate that.

Malcolm Stern: 35:25

And I'm really grateful that you've come on and you've shared with us so openly today, and that's lovely, chris.

Chris Waters: 35:31

Yeah, it's been a pleasure. I really enjoyed it. Thank you for asking me, all right. Thanks then Bye, bye.