Malcolm Stern: 0:46

So welcome to Slay your Dragons With Compassion. My podcast, done in conjunction with my friends at online events, and we're getting a range of guests people who have a story to tell often have positions of some interest and some magnitude in the world, like today's guest is a very old friend of mine, jim McCarty, who is still the drummer with the Yardbirds of mine. Jim McCarthy, who is the drummer with the Yardbirds, played with Jeff Beck, eric Clapton, jimmy Page, has a fantastic career.

Jim McCarty: 1:20

And Jim, you're in the Rock Hall of Fame as well, aren't you? I am, I'm also nearly deaf from listening to those guys.

Malcolm Stern: 1:27

That's great, yeah, and it must have been a real buzz. We're going to look at that a little bit, but I think what I'm really interested in is what happened in your relationship with your wife, lizzie. Yeah, because that, for me, is where the adversity, where the shaping comes as well.

Jim McCarty: 1:44

Yes.

Malcolm Stern: 1:52

So, Jim, tell us a little bit about your career.

Jim McCarty: 1:54

You've been a rock musician all your life, much and tell us a little bit about that anyway, to kick us off. Well, I always consider myself to be very lucky because I managed to have a great life in music. It was, of of course, the main success was back in the 60s, but it seems to have kept going. So it's obviously what we did. We were doing something right. It's still very popular and we still have quite a big fan base, and they still bring out the old albums in different shapes and forms Nice, nice, so I'm very lucky. I've gone on to do other things, still bring out the old albums in different shapes and forms Nice, so I'm very lucky. I've gone on to do other things. I've done my own albums and I've done singing and playing acoustic guitar, and I've even done some new edgy albums Involved with you, actually, malcolm.

Malcolm Stern: 2:49

That was great, jim. That was really good fun as well, and I really got to see what a craftsman you are. But actually it's like you know you can go, he's a drummer and just go, whatever it is. But actually, um, you're a lot more than just a drummer, um, you are. You are definitely a sort of a pretty powerful musician yes and um, um it's.

Malcolm Stern: 3:09

It's been lovely working with you as well. I've really enjoyed the sort of the creation of a couple of new agey type albums Medicine Dance and Chakra Dance and Songs of the Heart. We'll Forget About because that was pretty awful, but the others were pretty good.

Jim McCarty: 3:23

Yeah, but they did very well, didn't they? And in terms of today's market, you know they'd probably be hits.

Malcolm Stern: 3:29

you know they did really well we sold over 70 000 medicine, doesn't we? Over the over the years. So that's, uh, that's pretty good.

Malcolm Stern: 3:41

So yeah so it's been. It's been great and and um, um. What I've noticed is that you are a very passionate. You're a passionate man and and your passion goes into your music as well and and lived a passionate life as well. This isn't just you on stage. This is, this is you in lots of different places. So first of all, let's let's do that before we go to. We talk a little bit about your, your, um, your um late wife lizzie, in in a bit, if that's okay. But I'd like to just have a look at what it was like to play with legends. I mean, you played with three of the top guitarists of all times.

Jim McCarty: 4:21

And what was that like? Well, yes, of course it was. You know, it could be quite a bumpy road, but of course everyone forgets that they were. They were part of a team when we started, we were just a team and we're all doing our bit. You know, there was no, nobody that was. And now, or as far as we knew, nobody was going to be a, you know, a real cult in 50 years time yeah, yes, so, and it was fun.

Jim McCarty: 4:53

We did have a lot of fun. Each of them, you know, gave their own version of fun. They were all very funny and, of course, I was always a bit of a joker, so I always used to click with them on the sense of humour. Yes, I was used to click with them on the sense of humour.

Jim McCarty: 5:12

Yes, so we had our own little humour and jokes and we made our life together, but it was, you know, up and down and it only lasted about five years, but it was like a lifetime in that period of time.

Malcolm Stern: 5:28

Well, the Yardbirds is still a household name. You know you're up there with the Beatles and the Stones. There is a sort of sense that you know some of the great music that came out of the 60s was made by you and your band. It's pretty lovely.

Jim McCarty: 5:42

Well, yeah, I think it was because we were, we had a good chemistry together and you know, we sort of grew up together. We were mates at school and all that, and we loved blues music. When we heard blues music coming in from the States. And we did versions of it. We did covers first of all, and then we just thought, oh, let's make this a bit more interesting. So so it got quite weird and wonderful in the end of it that's amazing.

Malcolm Stern: 6:18

And you're still on the road these days, aren't you?

Jim McCarty: 6:19

I know you're still touring, so that's yeah, I still play, you know, I still play occasional tours with. They're all american guys now, so the brit Invasion is finished. It's only me, but it's a great band and they all know the stuff. They know it inside out and it's always a great night show.

Malcolm Stern: 6:48

I was watching something on YouTube yesterday John Anderson, who was the lead singer with yes, of course, and um, and he's got some american musicians around him and he sounds great and it's like obviously there's such a a passion in in the states for these old rockers like like yourself well, he was lucky.

Jim McCarty: 7:06

You know he has such a great voice, so you know that voice is all important. You know the voice of yes, and people will never forget that.

Malcolm Stern: 7:16

It's funny because I once went to see a CCC yes, with the tribute band singer who'd replaced John Anderson at that time, and although he looked like him and he sounded like him, he didn't capture something of the magic that he did. And I think there's something about having a real sort of like gravitas, which I see that you have. When I've seen you on stage I can see that you've got gravitas, that you actually you are it. You know that's what happens for you.

Jim McCarty: 7:46

Yeah. So I'm going to do a different sort of pitch. I think I'm thinking of putting together a different sort of show where I do more talking and talk through the history of the band and go through it along with the band playing you know, playing songs as well but make it more of an event rather than just a rock show.

Malcolm Stern: 8:14

It's funny because I'm I'm an enormous fan of leonard cohen, as you know, and um, and one of the things I really appreciated about going to his shows, which I did a few times, was the talking, the stories, the sort of like, the warmth and the connection with the audience.

Jim McCarty: 8:27

And, as you say, you're a joker and you really have that capacity to to engage with your audience as well yeah, yes, well, it was a funny story and you know you get films like spinal tap and they're very accurate, you know. Yes, yes, I remember that, you know, um, so it's, it's a. It was a funny life, but, uh, people are very interested in those things and the stories involved.

Malcolm Stern: 8:56

Well, I think there's a real glamour, isn't there? And you know, rock is the ultimate glamour. You know, david Essex said show me a boy who doesn't want to be a rock star and I'll show you a liar. And there is something about it's like that was the pinnacle of all our ambitions. But of course, course, it has its shadow side with it as well, doesn't it so well?

Jim McCarty: 9:14

well, the glamour is a very small percentage of it, to be honest. You know, it's a lot of very boring stuff, like traveling on a bus or uh, waiting in a dressing room or getting a picture taken or you know, or doing interviews or anything like that, and the glamour is just, you know, maybe 5% of it.

Malcolm Stern: 9:37

Yes, yeah, and you've obviously had a wildlife. You don't get through being a rock and roll star without having a wildlife, and I'm not going to sort of drag that out of you anyway, jim. But actually you had a very beautiful marriage to Lizzie and and I think that's where I I remember we had some conversations after Lizzie died and and I was touched by the soulfulness that you had and that that depth of connection. Can you say a little bit about that, that part of your journey, because this feels to me like one of the big molders of you, big shapers of you, as well as your rock career yes, I meanzie, she didn't come.

Jim McCarty: 10:14

She wasn't really a rock chick, she wasn't rock and roll, you know, she was more from modern art and she worked in a famous art gallery in London when we met and then she stopped that. She was fed up with it and we came up to France to live. We decided to live in France because we loved the scenery and we loved nature and all that and she was a very stabilising person for me, very grounding and very reassuring, and you know, apparently I was reassuring for her, her because what I've always seen you, jim, is this immense kindness as well, and um, and I'm sure she would have enjoyed that and and that would have made it made her life, you know, pretty decent as well with you well, yes, and we, we were very happy.

Jim McCarty: 11:17

We were very happy and we were, we were together, you know, a bit over 20 years, um, and we had lots of fun and we had some, you know, beautiful moments and I think the interesting thing is that when she died, you know it was such a horrible, horrible thing, as you know. You know it's a, it's a terrible blow, but I started to find out that she was still around and I did everything I could to investigate that. You know, I took up courses with a medium and I followed all these YouTube near-death experience accounts and all this and followed a lot of these alternative people that were talking about life after death. And lots of things happened here. You know, lots of communication happened between me and Lizzie and it was obvious that you know she was around, her consciousness was still living, and it was a revelation really.

Malcolm Stern: 12:31

Now, coming from some people, I would see that as sort of a bit of woo-woo, but actually, coming from you, I know that that's not part of who you are, that you haven't just sort of picked up on every new age idea and run with it. You've got a sort of a stability. So for you to say that that's quite a big deal and and our experience is actually, you know, nothing can deny our experience, and what I'm hearing is you had a deep experience of Lizzie still being around and of course, you wrote a beautiful book which you sent me, which is very kind of you, called she Walks in Beauty and uh, and so tell us a little bit about, about that experience of her dying and how that manifested for you her still being around.

Jim McCarty: 13:12

Well, I don't know. It was a revelation because I studied Buddhism quite a bit. We used to follow a Buddhist guru who you probably know. We used to go on his retreats and all this and go abroad and everything, go to India and China and we. Death was part of their studies, but it somehow wasn't quite the same, the actual practical thing of somebody close to you dying. It was a different together. I guess it was much closer and it was much clearer actually, and some of the things that happened were very interesting and I put them in the book.

Jim McCarty: 14:11

You know, we used to go to a little cafe up in the hills near here, a beautiful little place, a little place about 20 miles away, and I went there after she'd passed, I, I went up on my own and, uh, I talked to the woman who ran the little cafe and she said, oh, I was, I was coming into the work the other day and I, I, I saw you two. She was french, you know, and she used to really like lizzie, and she said I saw you two walking and she said lizzie was very happy, but you weren't, you were in tears and uh, and then she said well, and I, I got into work and they told me she died. You know, she'd already, she'd already passed a few days ago. And um, I thought, oh, that's a very funny story. You know that's very, very interesting. Because you know that's very, very interesting, because she wasn't trying to impress me, she definitely wasn't making it up.

Malcolm Stern: 15:14

It's funny that sentence tingles up my arms as you said it, because it's like you know, we have out-of-the-norm experiences and we can tend to write them off, but actually I've heard so many in my many years of being around, the sort of consciousness movement that actually that's sort of um. That's strange and in fact, when, when melissa, you know, my daughter, took her life, as you do know, but um, um, but actually when I wrote my book about her, what I found is that her presence was there and and you know, I could say that to some people and they would go that's a bit weird, but I felt like her energy was helping me write the book and I wonder whether your book came out of that had something of that as well in it.

Jim McCarty: 15:55

Yes, yes, yes, Because I went to a system where I sat down every day at a certain time and I tuned in. You know, I learned how to do it, you know, with simple steps, how to tune into her, and so I started to get things coming into my head and writing them in a book and it was like advice, you know, and it was a regular thing and I had some very funny things. I mean, she said to me one day oh, Charlie Watts, Charlie Watts, he's not well. And a couple of days later he died. And I mean, she didn't follow the Rolling Stones, you know, no, clearly, and didn't even know Charlie Watts was ill. So you know, little things like that were very funny.

Malcolm Stern: 16:51

How long ago was it that she died? When was that?

Jim McCarty: 16:54

Four years. It just came up four years.

Malcolm Stern: 16:59

And are you still in communication with her, so is that still current?

Jim McCarty: 17:04

Yes, I would say it's on a slightly different. So is that still current? Yes, yes, yeah, I would say it's on a slightly different level. There's not so many funny things happening, you know, like TVs going off and lights flashing and things like that.

Malcolm Stern: 17:26

Not so many of those, but I still feel very, very close to her. Well, it's really lovely that you managed to sustain a beautiful relationship, a nourishing relationship, someone who wasn't glamorised by you, but who sort of who, who met you and and fell in love with you and, and and. Likewise, the same the other way around, and and I think that you know the book is very beautiful that you wrote she walks in Beauty. It's a really, really lovely testament to a very deep love affair which carried on beyond the grave, which is pretty profound actually.

Jim McCarty: 17:56

So it's yeah, I think what I wanted to do was just share the story. I wasn't trying to, you know, trying to instruct anyone or convert anyone to anything. I'm just telling my story and you know there's sort of no explanation, you know, really.

Malcolm Stern: 18:18

Well, there's no logical explanation. That's true? No, and you live alone now.

Jim McCarty: 18:33

Yes, yeah. How is that? After 20 years of marriage? It's very difficult. Um, no, it's difficult. I, I miss it. I miss it a lot yes I miss that physical company. No, I I like the company, but I I things. Things have happened. I've met different people and I've got different friends. My life has become more active than it was.

Malcolm Stern: 18:55

Right, yes.

Jim McCarty: 18:57

It's making up living alone, but the worst day is on a Sunday because she passed on a Sunday. Yes, Also, it's a very family time in France. Sundays are all you know. All the families get together and I feel very lonely.

Malcolm Stern: 19:14

Yeah, no, I get that as well. Yeah, and are you sort of like, are you heartened by the fact that you've had contact with her beyond the grave as well? What does that do for you?

Jim McCarty: 19:32

Well, it's changed my life. In fact, I was thinking the other day it's sort of a gift from her, you know, just to realise that life is something much deeper than we believe and what we really know about what we live. You know, there's a different, uh, there's a different accent of life, if you like, um, a whole spiritual side which you know makes you think much bigger. Yes, general, and so, uh, it's, it's changed, it's changed me, but even though I don't, you know, I, I miss her, I miss the presence. So I'm, I'm a, I'm a better person I think that's.

Malcolm Stern: 20:18

That's that's true, and I think that that that's sort of. It's almost like it's a byproduct of losing someone very precious to you that there's also a gift in there, even though gift is probably the wrong word. But it's a byproduct of losing someone very precious to you that there's also a gift in there, even though gift is probably the wrong word. But there is something in there that actually something has changed in you as a result of loving and losing. Yeah, Love it.

Jim McCarty: 20:39

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Malcolm Stern: 20:43

There's a huge everything sort of opens up, but suddenly it's a huge life, you know yes, yeah and um, you've always been very generous with you, with your musical gifts as well. So, um, um and I, you. You actually played in 1987. You played at my wedding and then wrote a song called the lovers, along with louis chanamo, um andamo, and it was just. It was so beautiful, it was like it was such a beautiful gift to get from you as well, because you have it's like you have. You're quite multifaceted musically as well. You're more than just written some albums of your own. You sing, you've got a beautiful voice as well. So there's a real sense that you've actually you've become quite broad and you've been quite broad actually in your music.

Jim McCarty: 21:33

Yes, I did a session with the medium that I follow. It was somebody called Suzanne Giesemann, who's an American woman, who's very, very good and very, very sort of organised, and I did get to have a session with her, a medium session, and she did get to Lizzie and she described Lizzie, of course, and then she said well, lizzie said you've written a song for her, and she said I'd like to hear it. I said, well, I have got sort of an idea, I'll send it to you.

Jim McCarty: 22:19

So I sent her the demo of it, the recording of it, and she loved it. She said, oh, you've got of it, the recording of it, and she loved it. She said, oh, you've got it, really, you've got it. It's a beautiful song, you've got it right, you know. And so I worked on it a bit more and it became a single. So it was a download single. Demon Records took it up and that's available as a download. It's called the breath of the wind.

Malcolm Stern: 22:48

Well, I should check that out. Yeah, it's lovely, um, I mean, I think it's lovely that you can we can use art. It's like you know, I never thought of myself as particularly artistic, um, and yet I found that it was really helpful, when Melissa died, to find ways in for me it was writing, but to find ways to use my creativity to help me ride those waves as well, and I'm hearing you've done that in so many ways as well.

Jim McCarty: 23:15

Yes.

Malcolm Stern: 23:16

I'm really touched by your friend, david Balan, our friend David Balan, who when Lizzie died, it was in the, it was in lockdown, he sort of broke all the rules, came rushing across France to support you and I thought that was. That was really beautiful. But it's also a mark of who you are, that you support a lot of people and actually you reap what you sow as well. So tell us a bit about that, can you?

Jim McCarty: 23:39

if that's uh, that's okay well, it's very, really funny because, uh, I, I, yes, I was, I was friendly with david, but I didn't know it wasn't really on what. I considered that level, you know. Well, not until that that happened, you know, um, because he, he'd seen lizzie in paris, we we'd met up in Paris when she was having her chemo, because we went to Paris in the end, yeah, we tried to go to the best cancer doctors in France and she had chemo in Paris and we met up with David and we did a lot of fun things together and, um, yeah, when she died, you know, he said, oh, I'm, I'm gonna come, and I thought, no, he can't, he's joking, you know. He said, oh, I'm going to come, and I thought, no, he can't, he's joking, you know. Then, all of a sudden, you know, he was ringing me from the airport oh, I'm, you know, and it was lockdown and he said, I don't know how I'm going to get over. But I went to the mayor of this I live in a little village in the south of france here and I went to the mayor and I said, well, can you give me a note that I can uh give to him, you know, uh, just to say he's coming to support, support me because I've lost my wife. So he wrote a letter to so I I sent him the photostat or whatever so he could show it to the customs. But in the end he just flew through.

Jim McCarty: 25:14

You know, he had no problems and I think that it was quite strict at the time. You had to have a strong reason to come into the country, yes, and he said, oh, I came in and I chatted and I said, oh, I've got a house down in france and and everyone was very nice to me, and he just came through and he was, he had to stay. He couldn't come for just a weekend or whatever, so he had to stay for two or three weeks. That was the rules and it was like a bit it was magic, you know, a bit magical. But he he always says he did his jewish mother, you know, on me and he cooked and how lovely and really looked after me and it was fantastic, it was such a lovely thing to do. Yeah, I never, never.

Malcolm Stern: 26:04

I'll never forget it no, it's really lovely when people do things that go so far outside the grain. Yeah, to do something for us. Yeah, I think what you really did, what I really discovered when I lost my daughter, um, was the people that I. I really they weren't necessarily my closest friends at the time, but the people who I could really be around in that and I think you become much more sort of tuned in to where you're going to be met or not in particular circumstances. Yeah, I left a men's group that I was in because I just felt uncomfortable with two of the men in that group bringing my vulnerability to that place. And have you discovered people? Have you know? Obviously, david's turned up, and have you discovered other people have come around you.

Jim McCarty: 26:52

Yes, yes, there's an English guy that I knew vaguely and he used to ring me up and he said the strangest thing was that he lost his wife a week after mine and her name was Lizzie as well. Wow, and he lives in a village here about 45 minutes drive, and he used to ring me up and say in the lockdown, and say you know, don't hang around on your own, come over, because we've got a little snooker club. You know, don't hang around on your own, come over, because we've got a little snooker club. And, uh, I've got a little snooker table and I've got. You know, we've got a couple of people here. They're interesting blokes, you know. There's a film director or whatever, and there's a another singer, um, and he said why don't you come? And I said oh no, no, I don't.

Malcolm Stern: 27:42

don't fancy that being an introvert who plays music in front of hundreds of thousands of people, but I know funny isn't that?

Jim McCarty: 27:52

but but but, uh, after a while I thought, oh well, I can't give it a try. You know, I didn't really want to meet anybody else but it it really blossomed and it was real good fun and we had such a lot of good laughs and we still meet up, you know, and we've even got a little group, we've got a little band playing down here. You know local festivals every now and then. And, funny enough, the guy, the bass player from the Stranglers, he lives down here so he's playing bass.

Malcolm Stern: 28:30

Oh fantastic, isn't that great, yeah, and so does music. Give you a lot of joy still.

Jim McCarty: 28:37

Yes, yes, of course. Yeah, I love it, I love it and it's nothing really big time. We just play, you know, old blues covers, john Mayall songs and Fleetwood Mac and stuff. It's great fun, I love it.

Malcolm Stern: 28:54

And, of course, we've used your music at the top and tail of these podcasts as well, you and Louis, we've used it for Medicine Dance. I love the atmosphere that you create with the music.

Jim McCarty: 29:10

Yes, I love creation atmosphere. Anything that's evocative I love, and I love to create evocative stuff With some of that Stairway. It's very evocative actually, isn't?

Malcolm Stern: 29:25

it. It is Some very beautiful music there. Also, I think, when you've written your own songs, they're deep songs, they're not pop songs. So I've forgotten the name of the album that you made, which Dougal, my brother-in-law, was featured on as well.

Jim McCarty: 29:43

It came off well Out of the Dark.

Malcolm Stern: 29:46

That's right Out of the Dark, and there's some really beautiful, meaningful, heartful songs in there. It's not sort of I met her on a Monday and my heart's just nothing wrong with that one, by the way, but it's just like you've gone into some depth in your music. It's been a way that you've channeled the deeper part of who you are.

Jim McCarty: 30:03

From what I can see, yes, I, I enjoy it, I I love, I love singing and I love, you know, writing songs and uh, of course, lizzie was a great motivator for me. You know she loved my own songs and she was. She was a good motivator and she had quite a lot of suggestions and of course that's gone a bit, so I have to motivate myself now.

Malcolm Stern: 30:29

Exactly so when you tour you're touring now in the States from time to time and elsewhere. Is that still motivating for you? Is that? Does that still give you a buzz, a lift?

Jim McCarty: 30:40

uh, yes, I think I think that having having a new idea does about you know what I, what I plan to do, um, but it's nice. You meet some very nice people and, um, you, you meet yardbirds, fans that have all your other stuff, you know they like well, they say we've got your Out of the Dark and we've got your Renaissance things, and you know it's nice.

Malcolm Stern: 31:05

Yes, and of course you played also with. Keith Relf at one point. Yeah, you had a very sad end as well, but you've mixed with some really lovely people as well as some very famous people. So that's on your way in the music business with um, with some, really, you know and of course, louis louis and you still do things together from time to time well, yeah, uh, yeah, louis.

Jim McCarty: 31:32

I've done a lot of great things for louis. He's such a great musician too, isn't he? Yes?

Malcolm Stern: 31:41

When I watch him he sort of plays bass and his whole body goes into it. And I see the same with you. With your drums You're really in there. It's like you don't miss the beats. You're clean in how you play.

Jim McCarty: 31:52

The nice thing about Louis he plays beautiful guitar as well. Yes, and that's quite talented to be a bass player and play nice guitar. It's also true.

Malcolm Stern: 32:05

Yeah. So if I funnily enough, he came down here recently and did a little set with with Dougal who's on Medicine Dance, and they were sort of jamming together and it was like, wow, these guys really are great musicians. It's really lovely to bask in great music as well.

Jim McCarty: 32:25

Yeah, and does Duke still play?

Malcolm Stern: 32:29

He started up again because Louis came down, he bought himself a guitar and bought himself an amp and they played together. So that was pretty good.

Jim McCarty: 32:36

He had a lovely feel, a lovely touch. The guitarist, yeah, yeah.

Malcolm Stern: 32:42

Well, he said he's technically very good, but he hasn't got that oomph that someone like Eric Clapton's got. That makes him into a star. But Dugan is technically very, very good indeed.

Jim McCarty: 32:52

Yes.

Malcolm Stern: 32:54

And you've obviously got something that does carry. You know I've watched old YouTube clips of you and other things like that that you bring a presence into your music as well, so you're a legendary band.

Jim McCarty: 33:08

Well, going back to the team, you know I work nicely in a team, I like working in a team and I can have a certain amount of control. You know it's always a bit difficult on my own. It's a question of motivation and confidence, you know.

Malcolm Stern: 33:28

As you know, yeah, and and where do you see yourself going from? Here? You've, you've, um, have you? Have you hit the august heights of 80 years old yet, or? Yes, yes, I'm 81 coming next month right, right, but you're still, you're still keen to keep, to keep going as well, aren't you? From what I can see?

Jim McCarty: 33:48

I'm still, you know, I'm still physically able to do. I mean, I get to make some pains, but, um, um, you know, I I could do a certain amount of stuff and I like talking, I like doing these sort of things, I like talking about, um, music and, uh, funnily enough, I did a thing the other day. I've got, I've got a, an american friend who lives down, uh, on the coast here, you know, about about a 45 minute drive, and he does, and he has a YouTube channel and he teaches all the Beatles songs. You know, he teaches all the parts. So this is what George did and this is what John did and all that. And he does really well and he was doing shapes of things. He was doing the Yardbirds song the other day and we talked about that and he's done a really good job. Mike Pacelli, his name is on the YouTube channel.

Malcolm Stern: 34:47

Yes, that's lovely. And just while we're talking about drummers, we often have this discussion a friend of mine whether Ringo Starr was a great drummer, and actually I used to think he was sort of an add-on to the Beatles. But discussion of a friend of mine on whether Ringo Starr was a great drummer, um, and, and actually I used to think he was a sort of an add-on to the Beatles, but I have a feeling that he's actually a really great drummer. I don't know what your as as a drummer, I don't know what your feelings are around around that well, of course he did.

Jim McCarty: 35:09

He did really well, you know, and you know it was a great. It was a great band, wasn't it when they played? We played with them a few times, did you really Wow? Yeah, we played with them and they could play, you know, and Ringo could do the job he held it all together. And were they nice guys to play with? Well, they were fun. You know a few stories.

Malcolm Stern: 35:38

Yeah, that's right. I won't drag those out of you, Jim.

Jim McCarty: 35:41

Yeah, but know a few stories. Yeah, that's right, I won't drag those out of you, jim. Yeah, but they were fun. They were fun to play, they were bright, you know.

Malcolm Stern: 35:49

So we're coming towards the end of our podcast. I've really appreciated you coming on us. It's been always lovely having a dialogue with you. Anyway, and the question I ask people at the end and you don't have to come up with magic tricks for this, as well as is what's the dragon you've had to slay in order to become what, who you are? So what's the obstacle you've had to overcome to become?

Jim McCarty: 36:14

um well, I, I, I suppose it's really, really probably the same as yours, malcolm the grief, you know, to overcome the grief, and that's a real dragon.

Malcolm Stern: 36:30

It is because it's not something you can crack in one. It's something that you, bit by bit, find your way through and find that it's educated. You, you've learned how to navigate those waves, and that's and that's what I've gotten you from reading your book as well that you really did learn about grief, and you, you've been practicing whatever it takes to make you whole.

Jim McCarty: 36:53

But I have to own it.

Malcolm Stern: 36:54

You can't run away from it well, people do try and run away from it, but you can't. I wanted to run away from it, but Well, people do try and run away from it, but you can't. I wanted to run away from it, but it wouldn't let me run anywhere.

Jim McCarty: 37:03

No, you have to put the right in the face, you have to put the dragon in the face.

Malcolm Stern: 37:08

You do, you do Well. Thank you so much, jim. I'm really, really appreciative of you coming and joining us today, and we'll let you have the recording soon, when we get it.

Jim McCarty: 37:21

It went very quickly, Malcolm.

Malcolm Stern: 37:23

Thanks a lot. Good to see you and we'll be in touch.