Malcolm Stern: 0:46

So welcome to my podcast, slay your Dragons with Compassion, which I'm doing in conjunction with online events, and we're getting a succession of guests who are sharing their experiences of life, often how adversity has brought them to be who they are and what's, what's dictated the circumstances of their experience. And today, as usual, I'm talking to an old friend I'm often talking to, to old friends. Um, we're talking to another old friend today, carlos Glover. And Carlos has been working as a shaman for a long, long period of time and perhaps you could, you could clarify for us first of all, carlos, what does the word shaman actually mean? Well, it's a controversial word, really and I don't.

Carlos Glover: 1:27

Well, it's a controversial word really and I don't actually apply it to myself that much. I think of myself more as a carrier of earth medicine or an earth medicine teacher. But I would say a shaman is really. It's when you're really connecting with this world and with the spirit world and you're able to really access the spirit world and you know, hear, hear the voices of the spirits and have guidance at will. So you know you can go there into that state of consciousness, that trance, and really connect at will. So nowadays shaman is used very widely to a lot of applications and perhaps it's a little bit become a bit too, too broad really.

Malcolm Stern: 2:20

Yes, it's a bit like tantra, isn't it? It's like it's sort of everything falls under that umbrella. But what I'm hearing is that you've been a student of wisdom for a really long time, that actually, you and you have also been a teacher of wisdom for a really long time, that actually you and you have also been a teacher of wisdom for a long time something where you wouldn't have come out your mother's womb and gone right. Well, shamanic studies is where I'm at.

Malcolm Stern: 2:40

Something led you in this particular direction and you can tell us a bit about your story of where you, how you, how you started off doing the work you're doing and what's driven you in that direction?

Carlos Glover: 2:53

yeah, well, of course it's a lot. It could be a very long story, but, um, I do remember as a child having wondering about spirit, god, what is this whole mystery thing that we're involved in? What is the meaning of this? I can remember wondering about that and conventional religion didn't satisfy. It didn't satisfy me. But I decided at the age of 16, okay, I'm an atheist. And then, I guess, certain experiences opened me up to spirit and questing into the mystery, really. So one thing led to another and, yeah, I know a lot of your work has to do with, you know, supporting people to find their truth and you know, really, um, listening to their voice.

Carlos Glover: 3:56

So I think I went on a long journey with that, um, in terms of the difficulties and the dragons that I've needed to think about and slay with compassion or I'm still slaying with compassion, let let's face it. I would say, probably not so much I don't really see it so much in childhood, but in the teenage time and that time when we all want to belong, fit in, have a recognition from our peer group. That was a really difficult stage for me what was difficult about that particularly?

Carlos Glover: 4:39

uh you were different uh, yes, well, we all are, aren't we?

Malcolm Stern: 4:45

but we want to you know there's a great saying about childhood, just about being a teenager difference is dead and it's like it's like it's you. You avoid, um, the differences, um, as much as you can you try to blend in, but sometimes we are so extremely different. I was very different as a child from my peer group and I knew that I had different promptings than they had, and clearly there's something very similar here for you as well.

Carlos Glover: 5:15

The promptings wouldn't let you just blend in and and sort of sacrifice the nature that was wanting to pour through you yeah, that's right, there was a certain conformity that was needed at school and, uh, you know that was partly from the teachers but definitely from the peer group. It was an all-male institution and it felt at times it felt a bit like prison. Um, of course, I was being taught stuff that they thought I should learn and I think at that age, you know, there's a burgeoning of sexuality and the sort of emergence of that and you know, I found myself fancying some of the other boys being attracted to them. But you know, homophobia was even more of a thing then than it is now. I mean, I know it still influences people, but at least people can come out and be gay and, you know, openly have respect from others.

Carlos Glover: 6:18

Um, but you know, in that atmosphere there was no sort of support, uh, you know, for um, variation like that. There's a certain uh, heterosexuality was the norm and we all needed to conform to that and I felt like I needed to conform to that. So I joined in, uh, the kind of um, you know, I suppressed those feelings and there's a certain internal oppression in myself and I joined in the sort of the kind of almost witch hunting of quote queers that word has been rescued now, but it was very pejorative word in those days. So when I look back at that time, you know I hid a lot of that from my, those feelings. You know I hid a lot of that from those feelings, sexual feelings, from myself and from everybody else and buried that. So I think deep down I took in a sense of being against myself.

Malcolm Stern: 7:30

And of course that belief that says I'm not enough or I'm not worthy and we start to suppress different parts of ourselves, they're going to find a way of coming out, often in a quite bizarre fashion.

Carlos Glover: 7:40

I wonder if that happened to you at all um, well, I don't know whether having a nervous breakthrough is a bizarre considered a bizarre. Certainly, my behavior at the time was bizarre. I I had a nervous breakthrough around the age of 28 and there were a lot of um factors in that um, but I think deep down there was that sense of uh, there must be something wrong with me. I mean, I was basically, you know, heterosexual, you know attracted to women, but you know, I felt somewhere in myself there was a part of me and I didn't really I wasn't really conscious of all that, but that must have been part of it and that sort of feeling like I need to get into a relationship and I'd had a relationship before.

Malcolm Stern: 8:29

Oh, I don't know whether to plunge into the whole long story, I think what's interesting is that there was confusion here and I think what happened is it almost became too much to cope with and you had what's known in the world as a nervous breakdown. But I agree with you nervous breakthrough, because there's an opportunity when actually you do lose it completely and almost like you have to reform at that stage. So I hear a reformation that was going on. How long did your nervous breakdown stroke through take?

Carlos Glover: 9:08

Um Well, I suppose it took, I don't know probably a few months of being in a mental hospital in France, which was not very supportive I mean, the French mental health service at the time was very backward and I moved over to Devon. It was really when I started living in Devon, my parents were living here and so I went to a hospital on Dartmoor and of course in my imagination it was like you know, it was Dartmoor Prison, on the other side of the moor. I had my bag packed ready to go at all times, but probably about six months, and it was after that that I started doing, you know, a lot more deliberate personal investigation with other people's support and, you know, going to a counsellor doing shamanic quote-unquote, shamanic work or medicine work and other things really.

Malcolm Stern: 10:20

So what I'm hearing is that up until the age of 28, there were lots of environments which were suppressing you were being suppressed by, or you felt you had to suppress yourself in those environments. There wasn't a lot of support in being who you are, and then you sort of let you let it all go. And then something shifted and you started to go okay, I'm going to become my own, I'm going to find a way of getting mentored by life, I'm going to find a way of making sense of this life. And that's what I'm hearing led you. That's the particular dragon so far that led you to the work you've been doing for for many decades now and um and and you got support.

Malcolm Stern: 11:01

That was I think this is one of the key things that I've written about in my book is is the necessity to create what I call the buddhists call sangha, the communion of like-minded others, and as soon as we start to feel that we can relax and let go and be who we are. So that was quite a journey for you. You went into counseling, you went into studying shamanic wisdom and medicine, this sort of stuff, and and so things started to change for you yes, I think it's.

Carlos Glover: 11:35

You know, looking back at my own background, I think there was very little support in school for getting to know the inner self. You know there was no sort of. I don't think the teachers had had that experience. So no blame on them, but that was the culture at the time. But that was the culture at the time. I hope that schools are gradually evolving to have more of that sense of support for each unique individual and really connecting inside. And I think probably having a breakdown and going a bit crazy at the age of 28 was healthy, because it broke open that side of me that didn't want to admit that I had any kind of issues or problems. You know, I didn't even really know there was a. You know the concept of getting to know yourself. I didn't really have that in my early 20s. I didn't know there was a self to get to know, you know that's what it reminds me of when I was in my early 20s.

Malcolm Stern: 12:37

So I was with a friend and he said he was going to see a movie called well, I heard him say Sid Arthur. Of course it was Siddhartha and I said, oh, what's it about? And he said it's about a man finding himself. I said, god, that's really boring, but of course it's one of the most important books I've ever read and it was a beautiful film. And what I'm hearing is that that befriending of oneself, of the essence of who we are, is part of the birthing of evolution in ourselves as well.

Carlos Glover: 13:07

Well, that's right, and it's a beautiful film and a beautiful story of the two men meeting up after many explorations at the river, isn't?

Malcolm Stern: 13:18

it, that's right.

Carlos Glover: 13:21

Yeah, well, that's right. Life does initiate us as we go on, and I think it is helpful to find the right kind of help.

Malcolm Stern: 13:31

And so how did you set about finding the help you needed? So, basically, you fell to pieces and then you had to put yourself back together again. How did you navigate that, and what led you to find the support you needed?

Carlos Glover: 13:48

My parents had moved down to this area and they knew that there were people in Totnes who did counselling. And I think they'd met one person and they said, well, you could go and talk at the Natural Health Centre. And they said, well, you could go and talk to him. So I started talking to this guy and I joined a little group of people in Totnes and it was all about, you know, opening ourselves up and sharing of our story.

Carlos Glover: 14:18

Now, at the time that that group was on, I was also on medication. There was a, anyway, without going into the actual details of medication, but at some point I had a friend who said look, I had a friend who said, look, while you're on those drugs, they're making it really difficult for you. You need to stop. And he was the only person. All the people around me, the psychiatrist, my parents, all the people nobody would say that. Nobody would take the risk.

Carlos Glover: 14:53

And I'm not saying that people who are on medication should stop, but for me, the moment when I took my authority and said I'm going to just try this little by little, I'll just see how far I go, instead of taking them today, I'll leave it. Oh okay, I'm okay. So today I'll just see how I get on. Oh, I'm not going to take it. So after several days then I realized that I was, I was actually coming, uh, you know, becoming clear of that, and, um, one of the people in the group I remember him mirroring he said suddenly you came into focus, suddenly I could see who you were. So I had to still be careful after that not to go into my manic attitude you know the manic phrase because I could feel my thoughts sometimes get my thoughts really getting excited and looking too much in the symbolic realm. So I had to, you know, know, gather myself in and stay grounded.

Malcolm Stern: 15:59

But I think ever since then I've been much more able to deal with, uh, yeah, with myself and I think there's something very profound about going through an experience where you actually are no longer in control of your faculty youries, and it's almost like you have to find your way out of the labyrinth in order to access the part you've obviously accessed since then, because you've clearly done a lot of work and you are now travelling all over the place teaching and actually sort of like disseminating the wisdom that you've gathered for yourself well, that's right and I think having that kind of experience helps you to be able to relate to other people who are having similar experiences.

Carlos Glover: 16:52

Just, you know people who've had addiction issues are better dealing with. You know helping other people who've got addiction issues. So you know people who've had addiction issues are better dealing with. You know helping other people who've got addiction issues.

Malcolm Stern: 16:59

So you know, when you have the experience yourself, it's much easier to help other people um, when I, when I am after melissa took her own life, my daughter, um, it's so many. Well, three people came to me having dealt with the suicide of their child. They didn't know about Melissa. It's just that, that's what I put out, obviously something that attracted people who were dealing with the same issues and because I've been there, I was so much more capable of actually being able to be with them in their grief and in their distress. And so I'm hearing, because you'd been there in this place, where your mental faculties were all over the show and you lost control, that actually, when you found it and you found your way through, you have much more capacity for giving to others that's right.

Carlos Glover: 17:51

That's right. Um, yeah, because I mean you. You labeled me shaman earlier on and I did sorry, but I think it is something about understanding these realms of our consciousness that we all have and can all go into. It's almost like the dreaming the night. When we dream at night, our night dreams can be wild, and what had happened to me in bringing this nervous breakthrough about was that I'd stopped sleeping because of the circumstances.

Malcolm Stern: 18:28

Very common, very common, yeah.

Carlos Glover: 18:30

A lot of coffee and suddenly the night dream erupts into the day. So you're actually living, you know, in the outer world, the material world, you're actually living the night dreams, so it becomes very confusing. So I think there's something about that, that experiencing that, that gives you some kind of understanding of what you know, what is common to all of us. It's almost like there are the two sides of us. You know the everyday self, personality, self, and then there's this, what I like to call the deep self, which is like our connection with the mystery. It's the life force that's in us that keeps our heart ticking.

Malcolm Stern: 19:17

And I'm just reminded of walking up Glastonbury tour once and bumping into a vicar on the way and we started chatting and I was full of ideas about what I called the new age. Then I was very sort of naive and sort of like all of the joys of that, and he said he said the problem with you, spiritual people, he said it's often that you're so heavenly minded you're of no earthly use. That was a very profound statement, because what I'm hearing with you is that actually you've also had to ground your reality. You can't just flip off into these realms. You've also got to be able to handle life on an everyday realm.

Malcolm Stern: 19:53

And that's the trick, because I've seen so many people who are so-called spiritual, who have no connection with reality anymore. They don't need money, they don't need to do this. They don't do that because you know god will provide. But actually there's a sufi saying which is trust in allah, trust in god, but tether your camel. And I think there's something about having to find our way to be both in the world and not of the world. And that's really what I'm hearing that you've, you've managed to well, you're on the road to achieving anyway.

Carlos Glover: 20:24

So, um, yeah, yeah, I think that's absolutely right. And uh, you know, in our minds we can um divide things into what's spiritual and what isn't, but you know, ultimately even the physical stuff, you know the computer, everything has a level of, you know, energy force within it. I like to think of it like that. But actually spirit is everywhere, and it's even in the material things too. So yes, we are challenged to tether our camel. Do our tax returns, tie our shoelaces, not that I always do, but tie my shoelaces.

Malcolm Stern: 21:06

That's why you trip over. Yes, yeah, so actually you know like life since you found your way out of the labyrinth, as I see it, that actually you've actually found a real sense of purpose in life as well that actually, you have discovered what it is that this one wild and precious life is inviting you to be lived. So can you tell us a little bit about that purpose and what you, what you're doing now and how you're doing that?

Carlos Glover: 21:37

yeah, well, that's so important, isn't it? Finding our purpose? And I do think some people find it quite early, but most of us we have to go through a lot of different experiences to kind of get there, and and I think it changes over time, I don't think it's always the same- that's's true.

Malcolm Stern: 21:58

So over the years you have actually found a way of being that is in sync, is in harmony with who you are and at the same time, is not sort of so convoluted or sort of off the planet that you can't relate to people. And so you're traveling, and I know you travel to various different um destinations around the world using your work, and you've also written a book, or is it two books you've written on?

Carlos Glover: 22:30

yes, well, earth wisdom teachings. It's coming out in october. I self-published it, uh, last year but, um, the publisher took it up and they're going to publish that. So that's really about practical use of the medicine wheel, so seeing the different aspects of ourself. So I'm very glad to have completed that. It took a long time to write it, um, and, you know, really distilling a lot of, uh, the knowledge and wisdom that I've gathered over the time. Um, just coming back to the sense of purpose, I think it does unfold over time and you go deeper and deeper into it and I mean, I do still get very interested in other things, like politics and acting and things like that, which, which you know, is another way of expressing ourselves. But I think there's something about bringing our unique gift to life and, as you know, I mean you've been a teacher for a long time, guiding people, honing your skills and hopefully improving over a long time to be able to do what you do now.

Malcolm Stern: 23:46

Yeah, and there's a lovely sort of like explanation of this book James Hillman, the psychotherapist, who said that every one of us has inside us a diamond D-A-E-M-O-N which will drive us nuts until we are able to do what we were brought on this earth to do. And I feel like we're molded and shaped. All of the things I can look at and go, oh my god, that was a tragedy. That was difficult at the time.

Malcolm Stern: 24:11

They've all had their part in helping develop me and I'm hearing that this is very true also for you, that that you've been shaped by your experiences and that, um, it's almost like you're, you're on much more of a freeway now than you were before. There's not so much of a struggle in bringing who you are to one, and I think a book is is, you know, certainly for my book and I'm hearing for yours also is like a birthing. It's like it's giving birth to something that really wants to come through you, and I think any book that can be written in three weeks is probably not a book that I'd want to read.

Carlos Glover: 24:46

Um, but I know that most of my I've done written three books and they've they've mostly taken four years to to write yeah, well, writing it's a huge process and it is a way of absorbing the information and that you want to communicate and finding an interesting way to do it. And I I've read well, I've not read every word of your book. Um, you know, slaying your dragons with compassion. I love the stories that they. They make it come alive, because all of us can kind of have an experience of something by reading somebody's story. It's not a direct personal experience, but in our imagination, we're going into it and we can understand ourselves and other people better from that. So, yeah, it's a huge thing, and my wife was incredibly patient while I spent all this time, sitting for hours in the garret writing away, and at the end of the day she'd say, well, how do you get on? I think I wrote. I managed to write nearly a hundred words today but it has to.

Malcolm Stern: 26:02

It has to be in integrity, doesn't it? You can't just flesh out. I know I when I wrote my book, I had a contract with the publishers 70 000 words. But actually I found as it evolved that it was going to be 60 000 words and I thought I'm either going to have to flesh it out or I'm going to have to agree with the publishers, which they were very kind, they kindly did. There was going to be 60 instead of contract of 70 said 70, and actually what I did was 60, because for me there's no fat on the bones here.

Malcolm Stern: 26:30

I've written what's what's true for me, and in as clean a way as I possibly can. So, and I'm hearing that your book took quite a bit of birthing, and you're right, sometimes you can spend it, but if you put the time in, so even if you write 100 words, you're still keeping the energy flowing. Yeah, and I'm looking forward to reading your book as well. So I think there will be a lot in there that will educate me as well. And I don't know if you've told stories, because for me, stories are like illustrations in there.

Carlos Glover: 27:07

That will educate me as well, and I don't know if you've told stories, because for me stories are like illustrations in there. Yeah, it was critical to tell stories really because and I and I used like personal stories, my own stories or other people's stories, I used some uh sort of myths and fairy tales and you know, just to try and illustrate things and then extrapolate, bring out the wisdom and the teaching behind that.

Malcolm Stern: 27:23

Yeah, yeah, I think that's a lovely way of teaching, because I've read sort of or I've tried to read very academic books which don't have that capacity and I I find it difficult staying with them, even you know how brilliant they are. I need some illustrations, I need to sort of to be able to relate it to something simple so that I can actually grasp the nettle of the idea.

Carlos Glover: 27:46

Yeah, because you want people to have their own experience, their own learning from it. Because you can't really tell people exactly what they should learn, because we're all on our own unique path and need to learn for ourselves in our own way, and we also need support.

Malcolm Stern: 28:04

So what I'm hearing is that your wife has been supported. To you, it's like you know, rather than what the hell you've been doing all day. You've written 100 words. It's like you know how was your day and and you're able to be honest with her as well. That actually it's. It's it's a struggle, but it's a a struggle that you're almost you're drawn to undertake.

Carlos Glover: 28:22

Yeah, my wife's really incredibly supportive and she's a very good listener one of the best listeners I know and I'm learning that skill from her because, you know, we can also be very challenging to each other as well, but that's important too.

Malcolm Stern: 28:38

That's the nature of relationships't it? So, yeah, yeah, yeah, so, um, so, now that you're you're out there, you're, you're, you're teaching, you're doing, you know what you're, you're able to deliver. Um, where do you see yourself going? Where do you? How do you see yourself? If you do and not, we don't always know what the road looks like ahead of us, but do you have any sense of what the road looks like ahead of you?

Carlos Glover: 29:02

yeah, well, the thing is, the medicine teachings that I've been studying and I now carry. They've been, um, traditionally they were. Well, there was a time when people were persecuted and killed, so they were kept in secret for a long time.

Carlos Glover: 29:20

I'm talking about north america now yeah so up until about 1970 they were just not really given out. And then they started to be given out to interested people, and I still hold that. This isn't about proselytizing or converting people to a different way, but it's making an offering and then to those who are interested, you know, take them, meet that energy and offer that. But I do feel there's something about I want to offer the consciousness work on a wider scale. I think that our collective consciousness is moving quicker and quicker now and it needs to, given the situation in our world. And I think you know the communication, the tech that we have, social media and so on are an opportunity to put it out. And of course, that needs to be done in integrity and not not dumbing down too much, but making it available to people to help people along. And who knows, you never know the full consequences of your actions. But my dream is that that will support more and more people to start this awakening journey, which actually you know.

Carlos Glover: 30:41

Just coming back to what you said about purpose, of course we have our unique purpose, but Eckhart Tolle, he says everybody's purpose is awakening.

Malcolm Stern: 30:53

That's nice, yes, and I know that you've because I've spoken there a couple of times. You've started a series at the local church with a very sort of open vicar called Unity and Diversity. Yeah, and that's a lovely series. It feels like you've created an environment where people can really go and be educated and can find community and can get inspired. Can you say a little bit about that series as well?

Carlos Glover: 31:19

Yeah, well, as you say, the Vicar's very open to exploration and to allowing people from different wisdom traditions to offer and, as you know, in this area of South Devon there are many, many people who've gone quite a long journey into a different wisdom tradition. So we've basically called on people from this area. I think we've had one or two from outside, but apart from that, everybody's come from this area and generally for an hour on a thursday evening in the church, people come and they present and give people an experience and then some discussion, and so it's nurturing people's spiritual lives and I think we live in a time when all our spiritual uh, our wisdom traditions are needed now for us to step up and take this step of evolution. That's needed, yeah.

Malcolm Stern: 32:18

It reminds me again of Christopher Fry A Sleep of Prisoners. I don't know if you know that, but one of the lines in there is it takes so many thousand years to wake. But will you wake, for pity's sake? And actually, we are being called on to wake up in order to take the step of evolution that's needed in order that we might create a world that we would want our children to share.

Malcolm Stern: 32:42

We'd want to live in yes, that's right, a kind or conscious world, and and I hear that you're doing your bits towards that as well, carlos yeah well, I think I think all of us when we do a bit, it has an effect.

Carlos Glover: 32:58

And we can't, as I say, we can't always see the effect, but as each one of us wakes up, even a small shift inside, it has a big effect on the field of energy around us. So we you know there are unseen effects. When you walk into a shop and you're in a more expanded state of consciousness that will touch the other people in the shop yes, that do remind me of randas, who was a big teacher of mine.

Malcolm Stern: 33:27

I was very fortunate to know him as well and he talked once about being stopped for speeding by a policeman and he was in such an altered state of consciousness he saw the policeman get out of his car and he saw krishna this is getting out of this. With the blue light flashing. He saw krishna coming towards him. He was sort of like in awe of this wonderful human being. He was coming to give him a ticket for speeding.

Carlos Glover: 33:46

Yeah, well I, I told um I was talking in a conference one time in Vermont and I said look, you know what you, what you put out, what you emanate with your um consciousness. You'll get that back. I don't know exactly what I said, but the next day this woman stopped me in the corridor. She said I did what you said and just that situation. The cops had pulled her over to the side of the road and given they were about to give her a ticket and she said so I, I just tried to love them. I tried to emanate love to them. She said because so I just tried to love them. I tried to emanate love to them. She said because usually I just really hate them, but I did it. She said they still gave me a ticket, but it was a lot lower fine than it would have been. How?

Malcolm Stern: 34:35

lovely yeah.

Carlos Glover: 34:36

Yeah.

Malcolm Stern: 34:38

I mean, we're dealing with other human beings. We can put them in their roles as police, or we can actually see other human beings that we're in relationship with at that moment try and see the human being inside the politician.

Carlos Glover: 35:07

I've had dreams about rishi sunak and boris johnson recently in which they've they've come for me for comfort. You know I've been giving them comfort. I totally don't agree with their politics, but it's a human being inside there, yeah, with a process to deal with which they're probably not dealing with that well on the outside. Who am I to judge?

Malcolm Stern: 35:26

but I wouldn't want to be doing that work either. So, um, so we're coming towards the end of our um, our podcasts, and I really appreciated your openness and your sharing openly about your vulnerability and the journey you've gone through. And the question I always ask at the end and I deliberately don't tell people at the beginning, I'm going to ask this question because I like it to come spontaneously is what's the particular dragon you've had to slay to become who you are? And that's like, what obstacle have you had to overcome, what resources have you had to find to become who you are?

Carlos Glover: 36:02

Thanks for the question. I might come back to you about that.

Malcolm Stern: 36:06

Very good.

Carlos Glover: 36:09

You want an answer for the podcast. Now it's up to you. I'll say something. I'll say something. I think I have been very self-preoccupied, and we probably all are a bit self-preoccupied, and so, you know, in terms of allowing myself to receive challenge from other people or from life, you know, I've always my first react is no defensive. And that dragon of defensiveness which is really defending your ego. Maybe it needs defending, maybe not, but it stops you from connecting with, I like to call it, the deep self. You know, a bigger sense of infinite self. And when we can connect with the infinite self, self, that will teach us, that part of us can teach us and I think you've named something very important this.

Malcolm Stern: 37:09

I'm glad you did answer the question, although it would have been fine if you hadn't but I think you've named something very important that I think the immediate jump to defensiveness is often what stops the flow of dialogue or stops the possibility of the situation being transformed, and so it's a real practice to not go to defensiveness, like again, I work with people on there, I work with myself on that, and if I get sort of attacked in a, in a group, by someone who's angry with me and I don't go to defensiveness, I often find that I can work it through and what comes out of it can be quite beautiful as well, whereas if I go to defensiveness, I often find that I can work it through and what comes out of it can be quite beautiful as well, whereas if I go to defensiveness, we lock horns and and then I'm just holding my corner. Yeah, hearing that you've you. You're learning to go beyond the individual, carlos, into the.

Carlos Glover: 37:56

You know the, the, the consciousness, the field of consciousness of humanity and to trust that, to learn to trust that, because when you connect with that, you know the divine part of us. Then you can really start to trust. I'm actually reminded of arnie mindell when you speak about that, and he died very recently. He was my wife's teacher and was my teacher for a while too, but sometimes he'd get attacked in a group and he'd go and join the attackers and say, yeah, arnie Mandel's, worse than that, that's great.

Malcolm Stern: 38:33

I like how that went out. It's good. Yes, that's lovely. Thank you so much, Carlos. Really really lovely to talk to you and we'll communicate soon.