Malcolm Stern: 0:46

So welcome to Slay your Dragons with Compassion podcast, which I'm doing in conjunction with my friends. At online events. I'm getting a range of guests who have had extraordinary experiences and have made something of their lives through overcoming adversity, and today I'm talking to a very old friend, Alex Howard and Alex, we met through your wonderful TV channel, conscious Life Is it Conscious Life?

Alex Howard: 1:12

channel Conscious Life. Is it Conscious Life? Yeah, Conscious Life. Yeah, it started off as a YouTube channel and now is an online platform. But yeah, that's where we first got to know each other, back when you were sort of doing alternatives, and we had some nice collaborations together, we did.

Malcolm Stern: 1:23

We had some lovely stuff and I've sort of watched you sort of like, evolve yourself. I think I've watched you develop your, your work so that you're actually right out there, specializing in things like trauma and, and obviously you've been through your own experiences that have helped you get there. So give us a brief update of what you're doing right now. What's what's happening in your life right now?

Alex Howard: 1:48

so where I am these days? Um, in my work life? Um, I run a clinic, so clinic that I started over 20 years ago specializing in um complex chronic illnesses, fatigue related conditions, trauma anxiety and so on. Um, we run a lot of online conferences, so we've done events, similar subjects, so our trauma event. I think we've had now about two million people that have attended our online trauma event and my, my sort of personal um, so I run, I run the businesses, but I also have my own work as a teacher. Um, my, my kind of great passion with that is I have a youtube series called In Therapy, where we film people's therapeutic journeys and then we share those on YouTube. And really my hope with that is really two things Number one, to demystify therapy, and so, for people that you know, you and I live in a world where it's the most normal thing in the world to go see a therapist.

Alex Howard: 2:48

That's not everyone's world, so to demystify therapy, but also for those that can't access one-on-one therapy. I hear a lot of people say that, following other people's journeys, they get a lot from seeing those journeys, and so that's also an important part of my work these days.

Malcolm Stern: 3:05

So I see that very much in groups that actually people learn by osmosis. So someone will do a piece of work in the group, it'll trigger something, and actually the work will get done by the observer as well as the person who's in there. And so is your series anything like In Treatment, which was obviously the TV series which showed Gabriel Byrne as the therapist Do?

Alex Howard: 3:25

you know what? It's very funny. I've never seen In Treatment, but my wife, when it first came out, was around the time we first got together and I remember her just, completely, utterly obsessed by treatment. So I don't because I haven't seen it, I don't know how similar it is. I think it's the thing that. So people sometimes ask how similar is it to? Esther Perel has an excellent podcast that many people will be aware of. The thing that we do that's different there is we actually follow the journeys through. So rather than doing single sessions with, with with different people, we'll film sort of eight to ten sessions with somebody, um, and then we'll show, session by session, the progression and the journey that that that person goes on very interesting and and people are are able to show themselves in that environment despite the fact that they're being filmed it's.

Alex Howard: 4:16

Yeah, it's interesting. You know, there's a certain um self-selection process that someone comes in knowing that that's what's going to happen. We've we've worked very hard in recent series to not get people that are just in my ecosystem that think, oh, I just want to have a chance to work with Alex. So we have a TV casting person. There's these people that basically go and find people for TV shows and sometimes they find us people that want to be on reality TV shows.

Alex Howard: 4:44

It's not quite what we do, but we've had some amazing, amazing people that have come in. But we've had some amazing, amazing people that have come in and what they often say is, for the first five or 10 minutes they're really aware of the fact they're being filmed and then that I mean we have a, we only have two crew in the studio. So we're very careful to not have, you know, like a normal TV situation, you'd have 10, 12 people in the room. So we're very careful to make it feel personal and intimate, but once people are in the zone, they just yeah, they, they pretty much forget the cameras, um, and it's amazing, the work that people, people, people end up doing.

Malcolm Stern: 5:21

Yes, so, as your, your, your work has has changed considerably over the years. Um, so you started off with the with the clinic, which was very much about I think it got. I remember a conversation we'd had where you'd had your own health trauma and that had sort of driven you towards the clinic. Can you tell us a little bit about that?

Alex Howard: 5:39

Yeah, sure. So I was diagnosed with ME or chronic fatigue syndrome when I, just around the time I turned 16 years old, I had a I suppose a technical term was complex childhood. Um, you know, I had, um, my father left soon after I was born. I had a sister with quite serious mental health issues, um, and I, you know, when I was first diagnosed with ME chronic fatigue, of course initially one thing.

Alex Howard: 6:08

So well, yeah, I remember that the doctor saying oh well, you know, it might take sort of six months, you to feel better, and that seemed like like the end of the end of the world when you're 16 years old. Six months, if you told me it was going to be seven years, I think I'm not sure how would I handle that. Um, but a couple of years in, I just I'd got worse. I mean, I had, I had severe, obviously severe fatigue, muscle pains, dizziness, headaches, I'd be exhausted all day and then I wouldn't be able to sleep at night. And I reached a point where I wasn't I don't think I was particularly exactly planning how I was going to end my life, but I certainly reached the point where I didn't want to live anymore the way that it was, because after two years and things getting worse, not better, it seemed like, well, this is just going to be the rest of my life. And I had a conversation that you know. We have these kind of moments in our life where you look back and you realize that your whole life really changed. And I don't know if those moments maybe we can have a separate conversation on this If those moments are just the grace of God that something happens and the right person, the right conversation at the right time. But I had a conversation where I was basically helped to realize that if I wanted the circumstances of my life to change, if I waited for someone else to change it, I could be waiting the rest of my life to change. If I, if I waited for someone else to change it, I could be waiting the rest of my life. And I was helped to realize that, although I had every right to feel like a victim because I was, you know, we're in our own way, we're all victims of the circumstance that we're in and that was an entirely valid place to to feel but that wouldn't change anything.

Alex Howard: 7:49

And if I wanted things to change, then I was going to have to do something and I had all kinds of reasons why I couldn't do that. I was 18 years old, I knew nothing about medicine, I didn't even do very well at science at school, I didn't have energy, I didn't have money, I had no resources to be able to do something. And what I was helped to realize is I did have one resource which I had time, and I was spending seven hours a day watching television, and this was like 1998. So I mean, you'll remember what TV was like back in 1998. We had four channels, channel 5 hadn't been launched, and so this wasn't like. Seven hours of tv a day now doesn't sound too bad. Between you know, netflix and amazon there's a lot of good tv shows to be watched and I always felt like I'm behind the curve, um, but in those days we're talking about crappy soap operas that are on twice a day. And remember, have the omnibus on the sunday where they'd replay. I'll be there for the omnibus as well.

Alex Howard: 9:02

And so I was helped to realize that if I spent that time proactively working on my health and things like meditation, yoga, nutrition, psychology, reading books you know this was back in the day you had to go to the local library and sort of being 18 years old and ordering books on self-love from the local library was, was, was.

Alex Howard: 9:18

I think I'd have felt braver ordering ordering porn magazines or something.

Alex Howard: 9:22

It was not an easy thing to go to go and do, but I read a number of books that really started to change my perception and I really spent the next five years on a very determined, at times obsessive, healing journey and I didn't find.

Alex Howard: 9:44

I was thinking I've got to find the answer and what I realized is there isn't an answer, there's lots of answers and there's a jigsaw and lots of pieces and one has to figure out how to put those, those pieces um together. And having done that and got back to to full health, um, you know, I was so at this point I was sort of 22 years old, I'd just done a finishing degree in psychology, I'd done some training in um, in sort of psychotherapeutic and nlp approaches, and, um, I was like, well, I'm not going to go and get a normal job now. And so I ended up setting up the clinic that I wanted to exist in the years that I've been ill and and that, yeah, that's what you know. Many things have happened since then, but that was really the, the, the heart of what I've been doing for this, this last 20 something that's interesting because it seems like your adversity educated you.

Malcolm Stern: 10:35

It forced you into a place where you were having to understand the process by which you were going to be able to move through it. And then from that and I think this is really important for us as well is that you then felt an obligation to let that be available for others, or you found yourself letting it be a resource for others as well. And I'd heard of your clinic long before. I'd heard of you as well that actually there was a sense that you were doing some quite powerful work around alternative medicine as well. And well, you probably wouldn't call it that I don't know what you would call it, alex but we certainly would have fallen in that category back in those days.

Alex Howard: 11:11

We've come a bit more, a bit more so, I would say, mainstream, but we've certainly become more integrated over the years. But I you know it's interesting. I just want to respond something you said, because this is such an alive debate in in my own sort of life of mine these days, which is which is that the potential for adversity to be our teacher, because I think about this a lot, particularly as a parent, and I think about I have three kids, three girls between seven and 13. And of course the constant instinct as a parent is that you don't want your children to suffer, you don't want them to struggle and having had quite a difficult childhood, I don't want them to have struggle and difficulty. And then it's been very alive in my mind recently because I noticed a few times where I'd see my kids sort of being a bit lazy or sort of taking shortcuts around things like homework, and of course I was very guilty of the same thing. So I thought in no way did I want to be kind of unfair about it.

Alex Howard: 12:06

But I also realized that almost everything in my life that I value has come through a certain amount of struggle, and I think about that even in terms of my relationship with my wife.

Alex Howard: 12:20

It's like one has to work at a relationship and it's like the things that we take for granted in our lives, the things we don't invest heart and energy into the places where we're not willing to be called out on our, on our sort of floors or our areas, are often the areas which cause us the most pain and suffering. And I and I realized that so many of the things that I, I love to do, the things that bring me great joy, bring me great joy because I spent a few decades getting good at them, because because I had to struggle, you know, and I and I, I it's a very difficult conversation as a, as a, as a therapist or as a mentor or as a friend, with someone when they're going through really hard stuff and the last thing they want to hear is someone going. This is really great because this is where the good stuff comes. And yet there is just a truth to that.

Malcolm Stern: 13:12

And I think we become bigger through our suffering, if we choose to be or it swamps us, and what I've seen is that actually, you've developed, you've ridden, on it and you've developed it, and I think what you were saying before is really interesting, that actually anything that really matters involves effort. So, for example, any idiot can fall in love and suddenly you're there and you don't have to do anything.

Alex Howard: 13:35

you're with the beloved and we've all been the idiot falling in love, haven't we?

Malcolm Stern: 13:38

that's right. But then there's the practice of relationship, which we're not taught very much about and we have to learn as we go. But it's a real commitment. Can you, and perhaps you could, tell us a little bit about, without having to divulge details you don't want to particularly how that's manifested for you in your relationship with your wife yeah, well, I think you know so we have.

Alex Howard: 13:58

We have three kids, um, three daughters, um, uh, different forms of neurodiversity. Our eldest daughter has very severe dyslexia, um, which has meant she's in a special educational school and has, you know, had a tough journey with that, although she's she's incredible the way that she's she's navigated it. Um, you know, I have a pretty complex and demanding sort of work life and schedule. You know, just last night it's like I can't make parents evening because they give us three weeks notice and my schedule gets booked two years ahead sometimes and it's like and so sort of the day-to-day complexity of how do you work as a team. And you know when I'm at work. You know I have 70 staff across the businesses. You know I hope I never behave like the petulant boss that gets what he wants when he wants it.

Alex Howard: 14:45

But there is a sort of reality that if I click my things and it needs to happen, there's a good chance that thing's going to happen. That's a really bad way to approach a marriage or to approach kind of life at home. And so you know the sort of the navigation of those different places and what I find is, you know, the heart to me of a good marriage is how do we work together as a team? How do I see you? How do you see me? How do you see me? How do we invest in this thing which is us and not let us only be defined by children or roles or responsibilities? But, of course, when one's depleted in themselves, the last thing they want to do is put energy into someone else. So it's just navigating all of those demands and those complexities and those complexities and those challenges and what, being able to not just be reactive.

Alex Howard: 15:40

And you know, one of the things I talk a lot about in my work is that. So I talk about there being two truths. There's the truth of one's adult, rational perspective. One, responsibilities, you know, being a sort of mature husband, wife, you know whatever. And there's a second truth, which is one's childlike emotional impulses, feelings, responses, and so when one feels unseen or doesn't get what they want in that moment, or feels that they're taking too much of the response, whatever it may be, one has all their reactions and that's that, that the childlike place is, to respond from there.

Alex Howard: 16:17

The adult place is, is to be rational, reasonable, but if one hides in that place and one's not being emotionally available. That's also a problem. Exactly so like that. That dance and that balancing of of those places is is so like that dance and that balancing of those places is always a working edge For me. It's like how do I advocate for what I need, but how do I also recognize that? What does my wife need? What do my children need? How do I avoid going into my kind of helper-achiever, over-responsible pattern where I'm trying to rescue everyone, but also how do I avoid swinging to the other extreme where I'm like, well, I've given too much, so I'm, I'm now checking out and unavailable, like all of these delicate balances so.

Malcolm Stern: 16:59

So one of the other models that I've used in in when I've worked with relationships is the uh that you need to connect at an emotional, physical, spiritual and uh and emotional, physical, spiritual and intellectual level. How would you say that functions for you in your marriage?

Alex Howard: 17:19

Are there connections at all those?

Malcolm Stern: 17:21

levels. I think you should ask my wife.

Alex Howard: 17:23

I should ask her that, yes, I think there is certainly that intention.

Alex Howard: 17:27

For that I would say yes, yes, and I think what was really important you know, I had quite a lot of disastrous or failed relationships before I met my wife and I realized that the thing that was most important to me and I think for different people it's different, I'm not saying this is how it is for everyone but what for me was the most important thing was that, when it came down to it, at the most important things, we would be values aligned, and so we've both been on a sincere spiritual path for many years and that's a really important thing which gets a very high priority in terms of sort of relationship. We have very similar values when it comes to the kids and priorities priorities prioritizing family. You know what we, what we think is important for kids, and does that mean that all the time, everyone? You know we're always connected in all those levels? Absolutely not, but there is a sort of container that one hopefully comes back to, where there is that alignment in those places.

Malcolm Stern: 18:36

So what I'm hearing is this is a hard working. Hard is probably the wrong word, but it's a working relationship where you're actually creating a template, because up until the 1970s, it had never been even considered that relationships were a place of personal development. They were just the husband was out there, go and get it, the wife kept the house and in some ways it was much simpler. But things have changed the house and in some ways it was much simpler, but things have changed and we're having to create the, the templates for a new type of relationship which are genuinely supportive, connected, not mickey mouse. Of course you go through stuff where you're not connected and then you have to deal with your own stuff as well, but I'm hearing that's one of the places in which you've you've had to develop yourself and you're in a in process of developing yourself yeah, I think so, you know.

Alex Howard: 19:21

But and also both my wife and I, both of our um parents, got divorced so neither has had had a model of of, you know, mom and dad staying, staying together, sort of through relationship. Both of us had complex stuff in sort of family, family dynamics. You know, for me, and even you know, certainly working on one's relationship is really important. I'd say an even bigger challenge is parenting. It's like you know it's. And again, going back to that point around adversity and struggle, like I was very pushed as a child. So I had a very dominant, domineering grandmother. My mum worked three jobs. She wasn't really available, particularly during, you know, when I was a child. So I had a very dominant, dominating grandmother. My mom worked three jobs. She wasn't really available, particularly during, you know, when I was a kid.

Alex Howard: 20:03

So my grandmother sort of stepped in and filled that role and you know, in many ways she was extraordinary. I mean, you know it was my grandmother. That sort of left out copies of Dan Millman's Way, of the Peaceful Warrior and always, hey, you can heal your life, I read at 18 years old. That was like totally transformational. It was my grandmother that was taking me to naturopaths and nutritionists when I first got chronic fatigue in 1996. And so she was extraordinary in a lot of ways that it's taken me many years to come to appreciate. But she was also very, very much.

Alex Howard: 20:38

You've got to be top of the class. If I was second in the class, who was top? Why wasn't it you? If I got 99 out of 100 in the test, it wasn't about the 99 that I got right, it was all about the one that I got wrong. And why did you get it right?

Alex Howard: 20:50

So there was a lot of constant sort of pressure and push, and that's been a big part of my inner work and how that sort of then became how I was in relationship with myself. A lot of work to unravel all of that. And so, as a father, the last thing I want to be is the father that's pushing kids all of the time and then having kids that that have challenges of neurodiversity that the, the, not like my, our eldest, you know, reading and writing took, you know, many, many years because of the severity of some of some of these challenges. And so it's like, but then not being so hands-off that it's like we can just do what you want, then it doesn't, it doesn't, it doesn't matter.

Alex Howard: 21:33

So, like the constant inquiry of where those edges are and and realizing that great parenting is not about just trying to give children a happy childhood, this has been one of my really big reflections recently. Great parenting is preparing children for adulthood in a crazy world. And how do you build those resources and how do you develop, help them develop, those, those capacities and, um, and I don't know how I'm doing, we're going to find out and you know, as you know from your experience, you can do, you can give all of the heart and you can also have a child that just comes in in such a way that they're, they're sort of destined to struggle in certain ways, and that's also, you know, we have very dear friends of ours that have, you know, you know I, you know from what I know of your situation, sums, and it's not a failure of the parents. I don't want to make this about sort of good and bad parents, but it's like it's such a.

Malcolm Stern: 22:32

It's a as you, as you know better than anyone, it's a tough, tough, tough ground of self-development it is and it's I mean it's it's grown me and I think I think that's what's interested me in this series is that I found that the adversity I went through in losing my daughter was actually it's almost like an evolutionary trigger that actually woke me up and forced me to take a look at my relationship with my other children and forced me to take a look at my life and where I was going.

Malcolm Stern: 22:58

And I'm hearing that adversity. You and I probably share that quite a lot In fact, we've talked on the same platform before around things like this but what I'm hearing is that there's a consciousness and I think this is the key the consciousness that stops you from just being swamped by the terribleness of life, sometimes the horrendous things that can happen to us, and the inevitability for people like you and I to find a way forwards. That's healthy. It's almost like opening a door that hasn't been opened before, and I know that you did that a lot in your work and I was incredibly impressed with the documentary you made um. We won't go too greatly to know about this, about andrew cohen, but it was um. It was a very interesting documentary about a really tricky subject that I found riveting and fascinating because there was consciousness in the exploration of the subject. And, again, without going into an enormous detail, I was wondering if you could say something about that, for example, yeah, let me just contextualise it just briefly for those who may not know who Andrew Cohen is.

Alex Howard: 23:59

So Andrew Cohen was or is, he would say. But but back in the day, um, a very well-known spiritual teacher, um, I guess I'm trying to think about the timeline here sort of probably the late 80s I might got that slightly wrong. I was very I knew every detail about this about 10 years. But he built um, he was an advaita teacher, I guess what you'd say was probably the sort of background and he had some really good stuff and he had some very toxic stuff. I think you could put it bluntly to say had not worked.

Alex Howard: 24:38

His own shadow had a sort of claimed enlightenment, his claimed enlightenment for him, um as well, um, and a lot of people were drawn to him and they were drawn to the work. And I think part of what drew a lot of people to him is that he was an uncompromising sort of radical in the way that you've got to go all in in terms of your spiritual path. And if that had got to me at a certain point, I probably would have bought into that as well, which is why I was so fascinated by him and by the subject and and in a way, there is something that's extraordinary when you get hundreds of people together and waking up is the most important thing that everyone is committed to doing. And so he drew in some incredibly impressive people, very sincere seekers, people that you know almost like the creme de la creme, of people that are really want to go for it in this lifetime in terms of of of kind of waking up and growing up and doing spiritual work. And you know many of those in that community will say they had some of the best experiences of their lives. They also had some horrendously bad experiences as well and in the end those power dynamics sort of turned in on themselves and you know things down to. You know absolute power and control over people, deciding what relationships people could be in. You know people shaving their heads, doing thousands of prostrations in sort of worship of sort of him. And then it got really dark in some ways, kind of financial kind of extortion, control of people. People nearly died in some of the sort of things they had to do in sort of service and sacrifice and so on.

Alex Howard: 26:19

So the whole thing fell apart and um, and actually part of how it fell apart, which is to me an interesting part of the story was that a bunch of the ex-students that sort of been ostracized from the community started connecting in facebook groups so that kind of example of how social media can do good as well as it can do bad. And they and they'd all been sort of cut off from each other, but they started to share experience. Oh, that happened to me, oh my god. But he told me that was what happened. So they started to sort of unravel all of this. So they challenged him. Um, he stood down. I think it was forced. It was forced to step down and then the whole thing sort of sort of imploded.

Alex Howard: 26:55

And about three years later two, three, four years later, um, he wrote a couple of public letters in an attempt to sort of a cynic might say to try and find his way back in. You know, a kind of perspective might be to try and take some ownership and responsibility of his actions. And what happened? And I read those letters and I was really curious and at the time I, as a sort of always being the optimist, I really wanted to believe that this was the sincere truth, that someone had had this all powerful position, had done some horrendous things and was genuinely interested in a path of reconciliation and a path of healing, and so I approached him via some mutual friends to invite him to participate in this documentary series.

Alex Howard: 27:49

And we filmed the series. We filmed with him. We filmed with harsh critics of his, of people that still supported him, critics of his of people that still supported him, and attempted to toe a very careful line of just trying to find the truth, like what's really the truth of the situation, and I think it was fascinating, also as someone who, in a more modest way, has a teacher role. For me it was a really interesting exploration of how do one hold when one becomes a teacher. You do have a certain amount of authority. People project things onto you good, bad, people give over agency when they shouldn't, and how do you navigate, and sort of. I think you should always give that actually back to people rather than to use that to weaponize um.

Alex Howard: 28:43

But um, you know, and I had an interesting sort of journey with my relationship with andrew, which you know, he might tell a different story to what I would tell um, but that was a very fascinating experience for me for sure, and I should say it's it. I don't know if I told you this, but in the end it did get sold. We eventually got sold to BBC Select, so it's actually now on Amazon Prime pretty much around the world. Um, it's also on YouTube, um, you can just search how I created a cult on YouTube and the distributor, um, who bought it, um, has made it available on YouTube as well. So, um, it is. It's out there to watch.

Malcolm Stern: 29:17

I think it's extraordinary. I think it's also very interesting that in some ways you're treading you talked about humbly treading, but I think that you're definitely treading a path where you are becoming pretty well known as a teacher. Now, that's not always a blessing and it's that's something that can trip us up. And I think the thing I remember most clearly about that documentary was one of the Roshis who you had on there saying I knew Andrew was in trouble when he said he had no shadow, and that sort of hit me like an arrow. And I think there's something about if we're going to take the path of responsibility for educating others in their lives, we have to watch the part of ourselves that wants to aggrandize and grow, and I know that you've worked a lot with it.

Malcolm Stern: 30:00

You've done a lot of work with an organization that I was also involved with RID1, the Diamond Heart Approach and learned, done a lot of practice, and I wonder how that's happening for you now as your work develops, as you're becoming pretty well known in this environment. Um, are you managing to keep? It's not about keeping your ego squashed and not having an ego. It's about are you managing to navigate your ego and your service really would be the question I'd ask it's an interesting question, you know I, I had a um.

Alex Howard: 30:32

It's funny, it's a fun conversation. I think ask these kind of questions, that's an interesting reflection. You know I, I had a period where I. So I think there are two problems you can have. Well, there's lots of problems, but there are two problems relating to this. One is where people become too inflated and too grandiose. But there's another challenge people would have is where they actually play small and people actually hide their power and they don't step into their power, actually hide their power and they don't step into their power.

Alex Howard: 30:56

And that was my issue for for for a while, particularly around around the time of producing this, I was like I just want to be the furthest I can possibly be from that. So I'll do everything opposite to that so that that can be a challenge where one is actually holding oneself back and and not stepping into one's gifts and one and one's potential um. And I've really tried to work at that over over recent years and to try to to not overstretch and to not um sort of get over inflated but also to not to not play small when I feel I have something, that I have potential to do the thing. That's been a couple things have been very helpful to me um. One is is, you know, my wife family, um you know, is very loving and supporting but she's not interested in my ego.

Alex Howard: 31:45

In fact when we first got together, it was the thing she liked least about me was when I go into sort of narcissistic moments of self-grandiosity and so it's almost like I inhabit that place and she energetically just withdraws, and so that's been a kind of helpful thing. But the other thing that's been helpful for me and it sort of happened a little bit by accident in some ways but most of our good friends, like the people that my wife and I hang out with, are really good people that are not really in this world. Good people that are not really in this world. They're people that I mean in the world of spirituality, self-development and so on. They're people that we've mostly got to know because of the kids, because they've got kids the same age, and it's like it's really hard as a couple for us to hang out people that don't have kids if we're going to spend significant time together because the kids are like what am I meant to be doing? Um, and so it's been really good to just have people that.

Alex Howard: 32:36

I think most people that we know in our day to day life think that what I do is run businesses and that is part of what I do, and every so often, for some reason they'll come across something my kind of more teaching work and I didn't even know that you did that. It's kind of intentional, because I don't want to be in that role when I'm not in that role, if that makes sense I want to just enjoy people and enjoy being around them and not feel like I'm being a therapist or a teacher or someone that's supposed to be wise and whatever, and that's been very, very healthy for me. I've really, I really enjoy just walking the dogs, hanging out, going to live music and not and not and not yeah, not trying to get narcissistic supplies off of of being in in some kind of role, which you know, I love my work, but I don't want my work to define me. That's very good, um, because I think there's a.

Malcolm Stern: 33:29

There's a real danger with all the positive, there's also the negative projection that comes as well, but that's often further down the line with the. When you're a teacher, when you're when you're doing your thing running groups, doing sessions or whatever it is people tend to elevate you into the place that this is a really wise man, and there's a danger that this is a danger that I encountered in the work that I was doing. It's a danger that I then thought this is who I am, and so when I went back to my wife and children, it's like can't you see that actually I'm an extraordinary human being? But actually what they saw was a pompous ass who actually was just that. You know, had one reality there and couldn't translate it into the home. What I'm hearing with you is the. Is the translation that actually you're finding the way to meld the worlds together without either of them compromising the other?

Alex Howard: 34:17

yeah, I had an experience in my um. So when I mentioned I had my journey with endocrine fatigue, and then I I wrote a book about that I set up, set up my clinic, and I had a lot of self-esteem and self-worth issues at that time. You know, I'd got sick at 16, having been, um, you know, very low self-confidence, very bullied at school and sort of, and then I sort of had this sort of persona that I'd sort of created. And then in my sort of early mid twenties, I was offered my own TV series by the BBC. I had a clinic in Harley street, I had a penthouse apartment, and so I was my whole identity was hanging off, trying to be this person, and then I started suffering from very severe anxiety, panic attacks, um, because I just couldn't. I couldn't, it took so much energy to sustain all of all of that.

Alex Howard: 35:08

So there was a kind of big breakdown process, which is when I got very serious about the diamond approach that you mentioned, that I was sort of very, very seriously involved in for about 10, 12 years and and so, as I sort of then for want of a better way of putting it sort of came back into a teacher role, so for that period. You know, I kept building the clinic and I built sort of the early parts of conscious life, but I was quite careful not to put myself out there too much. I did the minimum that I could get away with to keep things moving forwards, but didn't want to step beyond that. And so in the last sort of four or five years, as I've started to gradually kind of really step back into that role, I still have a very clear nervous system wound from doing it the wrong way, and just you know it's's. It's a drug that, like all drugs, can be really dangerous if, if you don't use it in moderation and use it the right way yes, yeah.

Malcolm Stern: 36:08

So I'm hearing you've got quite a lot of checks and balances in your family and and and also in in the the, the work that you did with with conscious uh, life tv uh, where you were interviewing some of the like I like I do interviewing some of the, the, the big celebrities in that world, and seeing that they've actually got feet of clay.

Alex Howard: 36:27

Well, that you and I've had some very interesting conversations over the years and obviously we'll be very careful about how we tread on this over the next few minutes if we, if we go there. But yes, that's part of it. When you know they say, don't meet your heroes, um, there's a and I've, like you, have pretty much met everyone in the in some degree, sometimes very briefly, sometimes more substantively, um, but you know have had commercial interactions a lot of these people. So you know managing sort of contracts, and you know we've worked with through, you know, just like you have done over the years through. You know pretty much everyone, um, and some people have been incredibly impressive and you know very good, kind-hearted, decent human beings and a lot of people. There's been a quite a gap between the person that's on stage and the person that you've interacted with. They're not on, not on stage, and I always found that quite disappointing.

Alex Howard: 37:17

And you know, I remember one guy it was a story that really sort of stuck with me a guy that we went to interview, a guy called Dr Roger Walsh, who's known in the integral community, and we were in San Francisco doing a series of interviews and he and his wife had moved out a couple of hours out of sort of downtown San Fran. So we drove out to go and film with him at home and he'd organized lunch Little touches, organized lunch so we had to go and get the gear out of the car. He said, oh, come and help. He said, no, don't please. No, no, it's fine, we're going. And he comes down, he's carrying camera bags. He's carrying camera bags and he's carrying Stan, and it was just the sort of sense of this guy's invited us to his home to film and we're guests and we're being treated as guests that have been welcomed into the home and nothing's too much trouble in terms of just human to human helping.

Alex Howard: 38:09

And then I sort of compare that to some other situations and how not so how I've been spoken to, because I've had some, some authority apparently, but how my team has sometimes been spoken to by people, um, and that's just really sat with me. That it's what is most impressive to me is not the size of someone's social media or how many book sales they have, it's the human that is living their life. That that's what I find inspiring and that that's what what I've tried to cultivate in my own life. But I really don't think I get to be the the judge of how well I've done that but but it but that's certainly what I've aspired to is is how, how you treat, and also how you treat people when no one's looking and when there, you don't have to treat them. Well, I would say you, you do, but but, but there's. That's what really interests me.

Malcolm Stern: 38:58

I think that's really good and I remember I'm studying for quite a long time with Ram Dass, which was a a real blessing and he talked about something called transmission and he said that the real teachers transmit.

Malcolm Stern: 39:09

And I was very aware of that with when I was running alternatives and I was watching the people who were doing their song and dance act and some very clever sort of ego-centered sort of like ways of winning the audience through entertainment, as I looked at it in those days, and the people who actually were deeply in service and had found something in themselves, and I think we're works in progress. I mean, I think if we're going to be teachers, if we're going to develop ourselves, I've watched someone like Eckhart Tolle, who's spoken to us a number of times and I think something genuinely happened for him, where it's almost like he's transcended something that I've seen very, very rarely elsewhere. But ultimately, I think that we are constantly in the place of having to overcome our ego, needs and gratifications and to be the best human we can be, and I see, and I know very much from the conversations we've had that seems very much in alignment with your thinking as well.

Alex Howard: 40:07

Yeah, well, I think one of the ways I think about it is you know what often motivates people on, you know what we call a spiritual journey or inner work, whatever we want to call it is, for nearly all of us, that initial motivation is we're suffering and we want to get out of suffering, right, we want to reduce the amount of physical pain or emotional pain or psychological pain that we're experiencing. And then often what we start to believe is that the way we're not going to suffer is we're going to get to some kind of enlightened or awakened state that we have some story or some idea of, like, what that's going to be. And so the work becomes about, about trying to get there. But having had the privilege of meeting a number of people that have got to some kind of state, you then have to ask the question well, well, what next? It's like okay, so, so someone has, has has, temporarily maybe, in a more stable way, but they've had an insight or they've had a deepening of understanding of, of deeper truths.

Alex Howard: 41:09

Um, but who cares? Like, does it? Does it matter? Does it matter? Like if you're still going to be an asshole? Does it matter? You know, and it's like it's one of the things that I find interesting these days. You know we did an event on psychedelics earlier in the year and it's not something that's been a part of my personal path, but I do have respect for that work and I have a number of friends of mine who had some very, I would say, helpful and positive experiences. But the ability to have a glimpse or an experience of something is not the same as stabilizing that thing. You can have a glimpse and then whatever. But even if it is stabilized, surely it still matters who we are day to day, how we treat the people around us. Like is our impact in our life a positive one? And having had awakened experiences, or someone having had glimpses or whatever, like if all they've done with that is had that and now think they're more superior than they've had it, one could argue they've gone backwards, not forwards.

Malcolm Stern: 42:20

I think that's spot on, um. It's interesting because I've I've had the opportunity to be with people like you know, arena tweedy, the chasm of fire. She used to run meditation groups and she was in her 80s and we'd go around to house and we'd have visions. I mean, people would lie on the floor and they'd have visions and I took that as normal. I was in in my early 20s and there was the normalcy of having extraordinary visions.

Malcolm Stern: 42:40

But what I watched was her incredible kindness and what I watched was all of her interactions were so caring and I watched this 80-year-old grandmotherly type woman who was incredibly wise, teach me about kindness, and I think the Dalai Lama's statement my religion is kindness is one of the most profound statements there is, and when my dad died, I said at my eulogy the Dalai Lama said my religion is kindness and on that basis, my dad was a very religious man and I really liked that whole concept of kindness that we're exploring now. So we're coming towards the end of our time together. It's really good to see you again, and the question I always ask at this stage is um, what's the particular dragon you've had to slay in order to become who you are?

Alex Howard: 43:30

and I want it absolutely spontaneous, so I haven't prepped you for it yeah, well, I, it's a good question, I'm, I'm, I'm thinking this is it feels like it's a question it has quite a few layers to to the answer um, is it? I don't know if it's a dragon, but the thing, the thing that came immediately to mind, um, the, the, the place that I've always felt has been my compass, has been committing to truth, but sometimes that's really hard, sometimes it's really inconvenient, sometimes it means making really difficult, painful life choices, and so if there's a dragon to be slayed, I suppose it's the dragon of sort of false truths or the dragon of my ego. You know, there's the comfortable path where one might be able to sort of hide behind a sort of mask or whatever. The thing that I've really tried to do, and I continue to try to do, is to really find those shadows and stare them in, stare at them and look at them and try and enter them and try to understand them. And you know, sometimes I was saying I meant to say a bit earlier when we were sort of in some of this territory but sometimes, when life is really really hard, like you know, we're in some of this territory, but sometimes, when life is really really hard, like you know we're really doing the hard stuff.

Alex Howard: 45:05

I think about those times and I look back on them and I go, at least I was alive, like life was really happening.

Alex Howard: 45:22

And you know, the thing that, to me, I always feel sort of heavy-hearted about is is when life's all a bit too mediocre and be sort of a bit asleep and just sort of going through doing the same thing day after day, week after week, year after year, and nothing really changes.

Alex Howard: 45:35

You know, and if we sort of leave it as sort of maybe a party message to people, it's like when it's really hard and we really show up to the hard stuff, like we're really doing the best we can to do the work, um, that's often when the real magic happens and that's also when, as well. I look back on on some of those, those times in my life and I I just think I mentioned the conversation I had with my uncle and it's like it's just by the grace of God so you know, I'd have a better way of putting it that the right person turns up or the right conversation happens, or we're in the library and the book literally falls out and hits us in the face. And falls out and hits us in the face and it's like but we have the courage to pick it up and read it, you know, and it's like that's, that's that's when we're really alive it's funny.

Malcolm Stern: 46:23

you know, you just talked about a book falling out. I was with some friends in um in spain and we were in this sort of fancy spa and I walked into the library there and the book fell out of me and it was herman jesus sedata and I went my my God. This man has actually shown what the spiritual path might look like and it was a brilliant part of my education. That's beautiful. Alex, thank you so much. I'm really really grateful for you to come and be with us here today and we'll let you have the blurb and the playlist, the playback of all this, and really appreciate you coming and really good to see you after quite a number of years as well.

Alex Howard: 46:59

so well thank you for having me. It's it's it's it's nice to have a conversation where there's it was having a conversation. I really appreciate your questions and I always enjoy, enjoy our time, and I we need to. We need to make more time to hang out, so it's been lovely to see you. I'll be brilliant. Thanks a lot. All the best, then.