Malcolm Stern: 0:47

Welcome to my podcast, slay your Dragons With Compassion, which I'm doing in conjunction with my friends at online events. So I have a regular rostrum of guests people who are exploring ways in which their lives have been impacted. Sometimes every single one of us will have adversity in our lives, and sometimes that adversity sinks us and sometimes it brings us new resources. So when I lost my daughter about 10 years ago, at first I was absolutely blown away, but then, after a while, I realized that something else was being born in me, and that's very much what this series is about about seeing what's happened to people and how they've thrived through adversity. So today's guest is someone I've known since I was a teenager a long, long time. He's lost his hair in the meantime, for those of you who've got visuals, but apart from that, he's still looking pretty good.

Ian Wilson: 1:39

Am I allowed to interrupt?

Malcolm Stern: 1:40

You can interrupt Ian.

Ian Wilson: 1:41

yes, yes, I didn't actually lose my hair. The middle part went like Ralph Coates or an itinerant. I decided to shave the rest off on a regular basis.

Malcolm Stern: 1:52

Very good, very good, ian, thank you.

Ian Wilson: 1:54

You may well follow in the years to come.

Malcolm Stern: 1:56

Yes, mine gets a bit wild now. So good to see you and you've had sort of an interesting life and you've managed to have a good business life, to have a very good family life, have children, grandchildren, and all of that feels very, very positive and good.

Ian Wilson: 2:19

But what's also been in your life has been some areas of struggle that have changed you, and the one I'm particularly interested in is at one stage you had a brain hemorrhage and some very, very extraordinary stuff happened around that and I wonder if you'd be open to sharing some of that with us um, well, if you think it's interesting, yes, but um, I, um, I had what was called a subarachnoid aneurysm and I was on my bicycle cycling home from my office in the West End to where I live and instead of the usual 45 minutes, it took five hours, by which time my wife was bereft and she called the doctor and all sorts of people and, remarkably, I managed to um, to come into the home and they don't know how I got there because, um, maybe it was hurting instantly, who knows. But anyway I got home and I was, uh, ripped up down one side of my body and I didn't recognize one of my children and and the doctor had to come around and said he's having a brain hemorrhage, getting into the hospital very quickly. So, yes, I only became aware probably about a week later when my brain clicked back in again and I was very lucky. I had several lumbar punctures to establish whether the bleed was still active and eventually the bleed, of its own accord, managed to form a scab and stop and therefore I didn't have to have any form of surgery. So I was all right. Within a few months I was able to exercise and do everything I thought was normal and go back to work. But yeah, that definitely changed my whole mentality.

Ian Wilson: 4:22

But it came at a time in my life which was riddled with adversity, because at that time with adversity because at that time my mother was taking in and my mother was a survivor and she was taking in with ovarian cancer. So I went straight from hospital to her hospital and convinced the surgeon to drain her because she had a huge fluid buildup. She did not survive much after that and beyond that, my sister my middle eldest sister, who's 40, my senior also suffered from breast cancer and I took her around to many different forms of pedos, both acceptable and strange in their practice. None of them worked. And we took over our children because our husband was not interested in them. He had been a heroin addict, so we took them over. So it was a very, really intense period of life, but we dealt with it.

Malcolm Stern: 5:33

I think one of the things I've been most impressed with with, with you and we've known each other a very long time and he said with twice he said with with you, okay, with with you anyway one of the things that's really impressed me is is your um commitment to family, and and what I see is that when I look around my friends and see who's held a strong family unit together, I think there's something very profound in that that we get great gifts from that quality of family. And the way that you sort of took in your sister's children, for example, as a very sort of like you didn't question it, you didn't go, no, I don't want to do that, you probably just did it. And how did that work out for you Well?

Ian Wilson: 6:17

we're like that symbol. At the time Vivian died sitting in the hospital. She'd like me to look after her children and my other sister, my elder sister, was also suffering from breast cancer as well. So I managed to get a resident sorority to look after the children. The husband wasn't interested anyway and it was really the only thing to do. I made a commitment to Vivian and that's what I decided to do, or Lizzie decided to do with me.

Ian Wilson: 6:56

And you talk about family commitment. That family commitment, oddly enough, has never really instilled into me because I'd come from a fairly unusual environment and my father died when I was quite young. My mother wasn't well, so therefore I looked after myself largely from the age of 15. So I wasn't really used to having a great deal of parental control or involvement. So it didn't come naturally to me because I hadn't seen it. But with Lizzie, my wife, it was everything. So she trimmed all the edges off me. She made me realise the important issues in life and also that I had no choice. So that was the way it was and we dealt with it. And eventually my sister Susan recovered and she's wonderful now and she's always been the most wonderful sister and surrogate mother and she took over one of the children I used to look after in a fairly distant way, the other one, who's now come up to 50. And we I stayed very close, unit, not just in my family, with my sister, with my nephews and this and everybody else like that.

Malcolm Stern: 8:21

It's important so you've created a really a stable environment from having come from a very unstable environment, and, of course, your parents went through some some very difficult times as children themselves, and I wonder if you'd be willing to share about that as well well, yeah, I mean I've got very limited information.

Ian Wilson: 8:41

The information I really managed to glean really came a long time after, and my mother was a child with a heart. Of course she came over when she was 17 on the last train from Berlin and my father was sponsored out by a family in Bromborough who paid 50 pounds randomly to get someone out of Dachau just before it became a killing camp, and they met in a camp called Kitchener Camp, which was an internment camp for people from largely middle Europe, mainly Austria and Germany, and it was predominantly male and I think my mother was a domestic there. We think we don't know. And a lot of information that we recovered on her early years in her life and my father we gleaned from an aunt I had in Vienna who died at 102, who also hid during the war and managed to marry a Catholic. She thought she'd escaped the answers for doing that. They got divorced. She converted to Catholicism. It didn't work. She didn't marry someone else. She became Christian. That didn't work and then in the final year of the war she got put in a camp.

Ian Wilson: 10:07

But she survived and my sister and I went over to see her on a regular basis post my mother's death because my mother wasn't really keen on her because she hadn't attended my father's funeral and we went several times a year. For about 10 years we went 30, 40 times to Vienna and she died at 103. And we used to go into her office when she wasn't looking and I used to distract her and my sister went in the office and we managed to get all the letters sent from the ghetto from my grandparents and all of their documents and we managed to mold them into a book for our children and our grandchildren so they wouldn't have the same problem when it comes to establishing their roots, where they came from, who they were, what was important in life and, um, yeah, so they. You know my mother was there in the crystal and after in the morning. You know the night of the crystals.

Ian Wilson: 11:15

And you know my father joined the RIMU, the Royal Institute of Mechanical Engineers, and he was injured in the landing in France, lost half an arm and fractured his skull, which probably accounted for his early death. So, yeah, they had a very tough childhood, lost everything and infected his skull, which probably accounted for his early death. So, yeah, they had a very tough childhood Lost everything, didn't really get anything back in restitution and had a hard time.

Malcolm Stern: 11:43

And what I hear is that, having come from such instability and fear and suffering and pain, you now know why I'm so unstable.

Malcolm Stern: 11:52

Well, actually, ian, I think you're actually very stable and I think this is what's interesting I think you nailed it before when you talked about that your wife, lizzie, is very clear that what she needs from family and help smooth off the rough edges. But I think you've never lost your, your wit or your your capacity to sort of like to look at life in a in a broader sense as well. So you could easily have been sort of like a dull businessman, and you're certainly not that well, I know quite a few of them, but um dull businessman yes.

Ian Wilson: 12:29

I think it's important not to take yourself too seriously and realise that you are not the most important thing. My mother instilled into me one important basis of philosophy, and that is no one is more important than anyone else. That quite helped me during my career, because when I dealt with chairman of companies who really had the most appalling attitude to others, I, I wasn't interested, I spoke to them like I speak to you or any of my friends or anyone, and that was it, and if they didn't like it, you know what they could do. So that was really the important issue and I think it's very important to be able to do that.

Malcolm Stern: 13:23

So your life sort of went from being quite difficult and tough to a place where you found a lot of stability. But there must also have been other things that happened along the way. So the brain hemorrhage is obviously a really big thing. Anything else that sort of stands out for you as sort of something you've had to overcome in your life.

Ian Wilson: 13:42

Lots. I mean taking on the children, additional children, was a massive commitment from four children to seven children and then to six and they managed to find to taking on a nephew. Ben's a lovely boy but he's got problems and if he sees this, which I'm sure he will, um, he's got um epilepsy with with Crohn's and he deals with it amazingly well, he's fantastic, but it doesn't permit him to work because you don't have to use a word of yours, the stability to work in an office without knowing suddenly when you're going to have a fit, yeah, so all sorts of things like that. Dealing with my mother who was continuing in hospital with um, unfortunately taking too many, you might remember. Do you remember the days of value of the dogs?

Ian Wilson: 14:40

you probably do yes, I do yes, okay, good old hale robbins, so value the dogs. Uh, there were two major forms of medication. There was tuna in limital and they were both barbiturates. So you wouldn't have them nowadays because they'd be a drug that wouldn't be available. So my mother, unfortunately, was very fond of them and I took her into hospital probably every three months to have her stomach pumped, and that happened from the age of 15 onwards. So I just learned from them how to look after myself. It was as simple as that and when I had my surgery, to my mother from my school asking if I still attended because I didn't have the school.

Ian Wilson: 15:38

I made sure she didn't see it. So, yeah, lots of things. There are loads of things that happen when I probably meeting you. When I first went out looking when we both worked in the same business, when you were a proper working man, that was an experience not to be forgotten. When I met all the guys I met individuals, that was also experience not to be forgotten. When I met all the guys I met individually, that was also a learning experience. But there are loads of things, um, stuff that I probably wouldn't want to go through in public form like this now because, um, I don't want to lie down my legs and arms up in the air. But there are lots of things that shape you, that make you realise that you're not the most important thing in life and you're very fortunate to be here. And the most important thing for me probably was meeting my wife.

Malcolm Stern: 16:33

Yeah, I hear that's a real turning point in your life as well.

Ian Wilson: 16:36

Yeah, at the Bullenbush.

Malcolm Stern: 16:39

Oh, really Down at the old Bullenbush.

Ian Wilson: 16:42

Your friend and mine will tell you that he was the responsible individual he does. He constantly says that that's all he says, did you?

Malcolm Stern: 16:49

know, yes. So now you're like me, becoming an elder and someone who's actually sort of like living. No one's like me, malcolm. Well, that's right, it's true, yes. And as you reach into your sort of like, your elder years, what's your aim, what's your ambition with this part of your life? Because you've done well as a businessman and you really dedicated yourself to that world. But you've dedicated yourself to lots of other angles in your life as well, obviously family and other interests. What does the future look like for you, ian?

Ian Wilson: 17:30

I wish I could say to you something which was specific. I always feel that I haven't done enough for others trying to put back things, and we all do. We all feel that we have a duty to try and put back more. We have a duty to leave a legacy. We have a duty to try and not think about ourselves or think about others.

Ian Wilson: 17:58

So, yeah, I'd like to make myself a better person in that direction, and it's a constant target that I strive for, but I don't always reach, and there's lots of things you intend to do and you just don't. So, yeah, what would I like to do? I would like to live forever, to be removed, because I think life is such a privilege. I'd like to solve all the world's problems, which will never happen. I'd like to be able to. When I've worked in public service voluntarily, I've probably said what I shouldn't say, and some of it resulted positively in things happening which helped everything, and I'd like to be able to do that with people. Not that I've got all the answers, but some of the things seem so obvious and people don't seem to grasp them, so I'd like to be able to do that as well because I know that you've been very philanthropic in your life and and you, you, you sort of spoke as though everyone does that, but actually that's not the truth.

Malcolm Stern: 19:09

I think for a lot of people they're so caught up in their own um selfish needs I don't mean selfish in a particularly pejorative way, but just that there isn't space to look at others. And I think that there's an interesting phrase which is think first of self. Misery, think first of others, happiness. And what I see in you often when we've spoken and gone for walks together or hung out together, is that there's a basic happiness in you, and that doesn't mean you wander around the world being sort of delighted with things, but there's a sense of having some sense of purpose and that you're using your life as well as you possibly can.

Ian Wilson: 19:47

Well, it's kind of you to say that I'm not so sure that's necessarily true. I am a person, unfortunately, who lives life without authority, and Lizzie will tell me this quite frequently, and so will my children and I've alienated people through being as I am, without attempting to work in either a woke or politically correct manner, because that's something which doesn't come naturally to me. Manner, because that's something which doesn't come naturally to me. So, um, I would like to think that I can correct some of the rough edges and be able to speak to people in a manner which doesn't offend them, but that's never going to happen, because I can't help saying or being what I am, but again, I think that's reasonably rare.

Malcolm Stern: 20:41

To be who we are In fact, there's an interesting sort of statement by Robert Louis Stevenson to be who we are and to become what we can become, that's the sole purpose in life, and I think that's one of the things that attracted me to you as a person sort of many, many decades ago is that you are you. There's not, there's not a lot of um falseness about you and uh, and I think that's actually reasonably rare and yeah, I'm I'm.

Ian Wilson: 21:10

is it, though? Is it rare, or let's, if you take it down to its basic level, when you're dealing with someone and you suddenly see them sink into a mood of the moment which then they become, let's say, incommunicative, or you're unable to reach them, does that mean they're being themselves, or does that mean they just don't want to be themselves, in other words, they don't want to expose the rationale or the reason why they actually reached that level?

Malcolm Stern: 21:43

Well, I think we're looking here at. Something quite interesting is that a lot of people aren't themselves, and I think when I meet people who are genuinely prepared to step out and show who they are and of course, there's lots of sides to us as well I think it's reasonably rare, and I find, you know, if I'm at a cocktail party which is very rare these days anyway, something like that but if I'm just having bland conversations, I find it exhausting, Whereas if I'm engaging with someone at a level where our passion, our energy, our interests are engaged, I find that really valuable and and that these days this I tend to look for people who have that to hang out with, because I want to get met by authenticity.

Ian Wilson: 22:28

That's very important for me and I think as well if you want that one area you and I totally agree on. I really have gone beyond the days when I could exist on bland, superficial conversations and unfortunately it shows.

Malcolm Stern: 22:44

I don't think it's unfortunate. You see, I think there are people who I'm not their right taste, but I'm still not bending myself in and out of shape. Of course we have to be somewhat diplomatic, which probably you don't have a great deal of, but you may have some. But I mean there is some None shape. Of course we have to be somewhat diplomatic, which probably you don't have a great deal of, but um, but you may have some. But I mean there is none I've got none.

Malcolm Stern: 23:02

None, that's good. You've got no filter for that, but. But what you have got is a sort of sense of that you are, you're living your life in your way, with your rules. You've been shaped, but also you're living your life.

Ian Wilson: 23:15

To a degree, I'm living my life with my rules, but also with the rules of my partner, my family and, to a certain degree, my friends. But those friends who I respect, those friends who I have time for, because of either the way they are, because they are who they are, because they are who they are, because of what they've done, which is so benevolent and so amazing to be able to view any of those things. But I agree, if I'm talking to someone and you ask me now or later, what do you talk about? And I don't know. It's just at this stage in my life and I really haven't reached the heavy heights of your stage yet, because one thing you're always going to do is be older than me Until I do. Yes, even though you probably think you don't look it. It's a waste of time. This, our time, is so valuable.

Malcolm Stern: 24:24

everything we do is so valuable there's a lovely quote that I often use on these podcasts, which is mary oliver.

Malcolm Stern: 24:31

She says what will you do with this one wild and precious life? And and for me that's so important that we live our lives according to the dictates that come from inside, that actually there's a wise being that lives inside us all that we can sometimes tap into, maybe through meditation, maybe through good practice, maybe through all sorts of things, but that our lives are precious and that we have the possibility of reaching for the stars in many ways as well, even though sometimes it's on a mundane level, even touching someone and doing some good with someone. I'm very fortunate to be able to run therapy groups, and in those groups, what I see are people letting go of their baggage and suddenly this beautiful being emerges, who's been squashed down. And so I think that finding our purpose in life and finding our, our real meaning and making our lives sort of a beautiful, sort of product it's a unique product that each of us have is really important so I actually you're very well qualified to say that because you him, joking aside you've been through the whole spectrum.

Ian Wilson: 25:40

You've obviously suffered terribly with the loss of your daughter, but you've also experimented in lots of different forms of worship, of different forms of activity, of different geographical abodes, of different occupations, and I think you finally found your true inner self. And I think, if I'm allowed to say that, I think if your father and your mother were around, who I was privileged to know, I think they'd be very proud of the end product that you got to.

Malcolm Stern: 26:17

It's very touching actually, because they were in the end. I mean, my father used to say to me where's your ambition, son? I don't want to make millions or be a big businessman, but I have bobbed and weaved and found various directions, as have you, but probably not on the work side so much. But there's different angles to us and I think when we're broad there's something lovely. But I'm very touched that you say that about my parents, because they were proud of me, especially towards the end of their lives.

Ian Wilson: 26:45

Absolutely, and he spoke very proudly of you as well, particularly when I finally realised after all those years that he was your dad.

Malcolm Stern: 26:54

That was amazing, that you actually brought up a friendship with this man who you used to see fairly regularly, and then suddenly realised he was your friend, unbelievable, absolutely extraordinary.

Ian Wilson: 27:03

What's the name of your son? Malcolm?

Malcolm Stern: 27:06

Not Manny.

Ian Wilson: 27:07

Stern was it.

Malcolm Stern: 27:09

That's right.

Ian Wilson: 27:10

So, yeah, I think it's very important that we can try and be ourselves, and I think, as we get older and a lot of people you and I know mutually, I think, are becoming themselves very much more some more than others and I think it's a privilege to be able to do so in some cases. In other cases it's the only way we know how, and I think I'm the latter, so can't really help it. It lots of people are comedians and they will adapt to whatever environment they're in, and I don't necessarily think that's a good thing I think there's a, there's a blend actually, because in psychosynthesis, which is a therapeutic technique, they talk about the inside.

Malcolm Stern: 27:53

Each of us is a tribe, that we're not just one person. We bring out different angles of ourselves for different situations. But the difference is when it's conscious that actually you're you're not just caught in swiveling this way and that, but you're consciously choosing to enter an environment with respect for that environment as well and you think it's good to be conscious, or I think it's very good to be conscious.

Malcolm Stern: 28:15

I think consciousness is actually that, for me, is the ultimate aim. I feel like when I'm, when I'm filled with consciousness, when I'm filled with a sort of sense of purpose and a sense of knowing that I'm much more than this bag of flesh and bones that will decay, is decaying and will die, but I'm much more. I know that I am much more than that as well. I know we all are much more than that.

Ian Wilson: 28:36

And it also depends on what your internal beliefs are, whether you think when it all ends, does it run in?

Malcolm Stern: 28:45

Well, it's interesting because our beliefs get shaped by our experiences as well. So I know that in about four years ago, three years ago, I had a heart attack and I was in an ambulance on my way to the hospital and I thought I was going to die. It was a serious heart attack and in that moment a sense of bliss came over me and I felt like it's okay, it's like just let go, and I felt this immense surrender and I felt this sort of this sense of everything's all right and I mean it shifted. But that experience I think whenever we have an experience like that, it stays with us and I felt like I was part of something much bigger than this individual doing whatever this individual does in his life.

Ian Wilson: 29:30

Well, the result is you believe there is something beyond.

Malcolm Stern: 29:35

I've had. My whole life has been spent exploring that. Well, my whole life, since my 30s probably, has been spent exploring that, with the use of meditation, with the use, sometimes, of psychedelic substances although I don't really go for that these days but I have sort of made it a passion of mine to find out who I am, not just who this individual is, much more than who this individual is, but what we are as human beings. What's our purpose in being here on planet Earth? What have we got to contribute? And I think service is actually what brings the greatest joy, I agree, and I think it's interesting.

Ian Wilson: 30:12

you say that after you sort of had a brush with your fate you probably developed a different form of philosophy and that philosophy very much changed in me. After I was ill I realised I had lots to close friend of mine who also suffered from a haemorrhage and I mentored him through that. And four years later another one and he died. And I saw his wife earlier on, who I'm very fond of and we're very close to, and you really don't know where the hand of fate will take you, but all I know is it was clearly not my time then and I really felt that every day I had after that was a privilege and I suspect you might have felt the same as well.

Malcolm Stern: 31:11

Exactly right, I feel like I had possibly come to the end of days, and then I hadn't, and so now it's like, well, wow, what am I going to do with this renewed life? And I do feel.

Ian Wilson: 31:21

I do feel energized and enlivened by it as well and do you feel what you're doing now, these series of podcasts that you are effectively getting involved in? Do you think that they are good for anyone who might come across them? Do you think they're good for the individual who takes part? Do you think they're good for both participants, or do you think it's difficult to differentiate between any of?

Malcolm Stern: 31:55

those? I think they're not necessarily good for everyone who takes part disciplines, or do you think it's difficult to differentiate between any of those? I think, um, they're not necessarily good for everyone who takes part, but I'm I'm a careful interviewer. It's like I've been doing that for a long time. I've.

Malcolm Stern: 32:05

You know, long before the podcast, I was interviewing people at uh, at st james's piccadilly, where I used to run a series called alternatives, and so I'm very used to engaging with people and I think there's I have a sensitivity this isn't arrogance or it's just an observation. I have a sensitivity to what's okay and what's not okay, and when I'm working in a therapy group, I know where the edge is. I don't want to push people over the edge, I don't want to crowbar people open, but I do think there's something about hearing how people have managed adversity, which is basically the theme of this, and what we do with adversity and how we we thrive through it, which is what happened for me with Melissa's death, my daughter's death, that actually initially I was distraught, destroyed all sorts of things, but after a while I realized that something else was being born in the face of that same as the heart attack, and I'm hearing that that's true for you, that something else was born in the face of your, your, um, your brain hemorrhage well, it wasn't.

Ian Wilson: 33:05

And I also think that, um, you very much have to sink or swim so you can explain to people to wallow in it and so why me?

Ian Wilson: 33:15

And not really rise above it. Or you can say to yourself that you've been given the privilege of life to carry on and, um, you can even carry on with more purpose because you realize, maybe, and certainly in my case, um, I was very much more subjective before I was ill and afterwards I think I was definitely much more objective, being that I looked beyond myself, I tried not to be selfish and then, when I managed to put myself in a position where I could do things other than work on a regular basis, I could try and be active in a field where I thought I could assist others, and I think that's very important, because there are so many people around who are less fortunate around, who are less fortunate, and even, as you said, even if you have a conversation with them, even if you just spend half an hour, an hour with them, talking and learning to be a good listener which is a talent in itself you are doing so much for them exactly, and so we can.

Malcolm Stern: 34:30

We can lift others lives, which in turn lift our own as well, absolutely yeah, so we're coming towards the end of our podcast, ian and I've really enjoyed it. Oh, good for that. Yes, but there's always one question I ask at the end, which is my book is called Slay your Dragons with Compassion, which is basically deal with what you have to deal with, but do it compassionately. Deal with people, deal with yourself. What's the dragon you've had to slay in your life in order to be who you are?

Ian Wilson: 35:04

The dragon I've had to slay if I have managed to slay at all is a degree of cynicism. I've always looked at things cynically, not to the extent that I have to be unpleasant or sarcastic or cynical to whoever I'm dealing with, but just cynical about the background or the driving force behind a person's reason for saying, doing or whatever. So it's a lack of trust. So the drug that I've had to slay is not trusting people and not believing what I see or hear, and learning to trust and learning to believe Rather than having to get an abridgment. When you trust your partner, you might think what are you doing? And you think, forget what he's doing. Trust, and it's about that. So the drug that I've really had to slay, I think forget what he's doing. Trust, and it's about that. So the drug that I've really had to slay, I think, is my cynicism and developing faith and trust in others.

Malcolm Stern: 36:27

Lovely, that's great. I just want to say that you and I play bridge together sometimes and I really enjoy playing bridge with you, because bridge is a game of instinct and intuition, as well as science as well. But I really get the sense of feeling in connection with you when we're playing bridge and that trust is what gets developed within the game as well.

Ian Wilson: 36:49

Exactly so you perhaps might not go down the most conventional route and you might think why is this happening? You're just in class, he knows what he's doing. That must mean yeah. Anyway. It's difficult to explain Bridge to those who don't play, and certainly to people who play like me, but I agree with you entirely.

Malcolm Stern: 37:14

Thank you very much for coming on today. I know it's not your normal thing to go ta-da, this is who I am. But I think you've shown some very interesting parts of yourself and also some very caring parts of yourself. And if I haven't, it'll be a very good solution for insomnia. That's 100% to work out taller for insomnia sometimes, although he's very wise. No-transcript.