Malcolm Stern: 0:46

So welcome to my podcast Slay your Dragons with Compassion, done in conjunction with my wonderful friends at online events, and today we're looking at the journey of Nick Williams. He's a very old friend of mine Very old being the characteristic, but looking at Nick and seeing how his life has made some major changes. So when I first met Nick, he was in sales and marketing and made quite a big transformation and wrote the iconic book which was about your careers, nick, the name of your book. I've forgotten for a second the Work we Were Born To Do. The Work we Were Born To Do.

Nick Williams: 1:26

Shoot your Researcher.

Malcolm Stern: 1:29

And it was an amazing book because it was a brilliant concept that actually, uh, I pretty much go along with that. Actually, we have something inside us that guides us into what to do, and you you put that about work. So can you tell us a little bit about your, your journey, nick? Where you've um come from and what what helped you make the changes you made?

Nick Williams: 1:50

yeah. So, yes, you know, I think in my 20s, like a lot of people, or especially probably like a lot of young men, I was very driven to be successful, you know, and for me that meant going into sales and marketing and I started off selling tv and video equipment and I went into kind of mid-range word processing equipment, then higher end computer equipment and, you know, by most people's standards was reasonably successful. But I think, as probably a lot of people can relate to, I realized my success actually didn't make me very happy. You know, I was looking for success to fill up that gap inside me. It's like if I felt successful then I'd feel good about myself. And the reality was, in some ways, the more successful I became, the less good I felt about myself. So that led me into a journey of well, why do I feel so bad about myself?

Malcolm Stern: 2:42

I think it's interesting because actually we need to rethink, I think, the whole word success, because we put it down to monetary, financial success, and I've I've met a lot of people who have a lot of money and very little well-being and peace of mind. But me success now is about doing the work you we were born to do, so putting our energy into what we were born to do and and actually for me the joy is in service and I know you probably share some of that as well in the work that you do.

Nick Williams: 3:12

Yeah, yeah, but you know it might be useful for me just to share you know what I realised, because I was very driven to be successful and you know when we met, which was, you know, probably over 30 years ago now.

Nick Williams: 3:25

It was in the 80s, yeah, when you were running Turning Points, just before it became Alternative. So, you know, I remember when it was still, I think, turning points, I think I was beginning to question everything. Then it's like well, you know, why am I so miserable when I am reasonably successful? And so for me, you know, the adversity that I've been dealing with really is, you know, I'm not saying my childhood was any worse than anybody else's, my childhood was pretty normal in many respects. But basically I've been dealing with my own childhood wounding. You know the and and, not just the childhood wounding.

Nick Williams: 4:00

But I I've come to believe, as I'm sure I think you probably agree, that we're also the inheritors of ancestral patterns and programs. So you know the, the, the bottom line for me and you know I know you relate to this because of your experience with your daughter I felt such a miserable, worthless loser really, and I felt pretty suicidal and I think my hope was that if I could be successful enough, I'd escape these bad feelings. And I realized I couldn't escape these bad feelings by being successful. So, you know, around the time we met, I'd gone into therapy and was starting a, I suppose, a kind of spiritual quest which was to turn and face the pain I'd been trying to succeed myself away from and and really I've spent the last 35, 40 years kind of continually doing two things really one, facing the pain inside me and the suffering, like we all are doing to some extent, and then, secondly, seeing how I can show up in the world and share the gifts that I have.

Nick Williams: 5:01

So, those are really two strands of my life, you know, inner work and outer leadership.

Malcolm Stern: 5:07

So they're important, important points you've made there of turning to face the pain, and very often we are looking for ways to to disidentify with the pain, to escape the pain. And in fact, you know, if we look at buddhist philosophy which is very much appealed to me um, we, we recognize that pain is an inevitability of being, and how we deal with what comes to us rather than what comes to us, for me, is the answer.

Nick Williams: 5:36

anyway, Sure, sure. And you know I was listening to something yesterday I can't remember what it was, but you know this whole idea of, you know, wound worshipping and I've probably done a fair bit of that you know like thinking of myself as such a victim to all these horrible things that happened to me and all that kind of stuff, and you know there's a part of me that can still feel like that on a bad day. But more and more I think the journey for me has been about accepting my experience. You know, taking responsibility for my experience. Experience and you know it's a tough one, because you know people listening to this might immediately get defensive, as I might have done a few years ago, and saying you know, to a large extent I've been the architect of my own suffering.

Malcolm Stern: 6:19

um, that's very important as well. I've been the architect of my own suffering is an important statement because in many ways, we are. It's how what we do with our suffering is just explored. So tell me a bit more about the architect of your own suffering. How do you see that if you peel it? Um?

Nick Williams: 6:36

I think one of have you ever done anything with the enneagram? Yes, you know I'm an enneagram, for for anybody listening that knows an enneagram, the enneagram. And, and what I love about the enneagram, it does kind of tell us what we can look like at our best, you know, when we show up in the world and we're being the best of who we can be. But it also kind of throws a light, you know, sometimes very uncomfortably, on what we're like our unhealthiest. And for me, you know, I can wallow in my misery, I can wallow in my suffering, I can wallow in my victimhood.

Nick Williams: 7:10

And the saving grace for me and that type is self-awareness, the realization of what I'm doing. And you know that has been a big journey of my life. That's probably why I got involved with alternatives in the beginning was to go on a journey of expanding my awareness. And, in answer to your question, for me, me, my saving grace is just going deeper and deeper into my own, you know, unconscious programming, my own subconscious programming to go, programming to go. Oh, now I can understand why I've suffered so much, because I've been running these patterns, these programs, these beliefs, this stuff, and then not beating myself up for it, but going well. You know, how can I, now that I've I've shone some awareness on these programs that have caused me so much pain and suffering, how can I bring them into the light of awareness, hold them in kind of love and compassion so that they do not cause me the pain that they have called me in the past?

Malcolm Stern: 8:06

you know, I think it's funny, you know when, when I, when I think about things that have, I mean, obviously there's the big things that you never escaped from. So my daughter's suicide was, was something that I never actually get over. Nor do I want to get over it, but I think about the many things that have caused me suffering and sleepless nights. If you wind forward 10 years from those events, sometimes, what they were.

Nick Williams: 8:28

Yeah, we were. So you know, I've been so obsessed with things that I can't even remember. Yeah, exactly. Um, so you know, and again, not to use that to beat ourselves up. So for me an important part of my journey has been.

Nick Williams: 8:39

You know, I suppose another way of talking about self-awareness is to talk about mindfulness, you know, just to be aware of how I feel, to be aware of what I'm saying to myself, and then bring in the kind of kindness and compassion bit in and increasingly I don't know, we've talked about this kind of offline, you know increasingly to develop a kind of sense of humor around it all or to see the funny side of it, without without it being too dark a sense of humor. But I was watching something that Alternatives ran. Somebody sent me a link to it. Well, I've just been on holiday for a week or so and what one of the guys was saying and I loved it. I've never heard of it said this way before. But he said to him mindfulness is when you can take the things that used to annoy you and they now amuse you. Yeah, that's good.

Nick Williams: 9:27

I really like that idea that you know, so many things have annoyed me or so many people have annoyed me or been annoyed with myself. And increasingly I find my way of dealing with stuff is to is to find amusement, is to find some humor, is to see the kind of funny side of it. You know I've shared this story with you, but you know, just about a decade ago I spent an evening with Desmond Tutu in London, about 100 of us. About a decade ago, I spent an evening with Desmond Tutu in London about 100 of us and one of the things that amazed me about him was just how funny he was. You know he would have every right in the world to have been one of the most angry, punitive, vindictive people you know, growing up under apartheid, and yet he was so funny and so amusing. You know he just had that massive heart, which I think is so important.

Malcolm Stern: 10:10

Funnily enough, I'm just reading Desmond Tutu and the Dalai Lama on the Book of Joy. The Book of Joy, yes, fabulous. And you see those two people who've suffered enormously and they giggle, yes, they giggle.

Nick Williams: 10:22

And they spend a lot of their time together giggling with each other. It was fantastic. I don't know if you've seen. There's a BBC program called Mission Joy, which is the. It's a documentary about their time together that week in Dharamsala and it's just so beautiful because they spent a lot of it giggling.

Malcolm Stern: 10:53

It's extraordinary and I know when I'm, when I'm running psychotherapy groups, sometimes it's really unbelievably heavy stuff going on. Yeah, suffering I for some reason and it's not that I plan it I I find myself occasionally lifting it and I have to be quite well tuned in this, otherwise it can be it can look like I'm, you know yeah, it can go either way, you know.

Malcolm Stern: 11:02

Yes, yes, but actually I know that when we bring, it's like we can rise for some humor and then go back into the depths again as well, and I think that there's some beauty in that as well yeah, no, I think you know I've told you I did this course on stand-up comedy a couple of years ago.

Nick Williams: 11:18

It was something I'd been promising myself to do all my life and I eventually did it. And you know, most of my time now it's been kind of coaching leaders. And there's one particular guy I coach who's got a you know multi-billion dollar investment business and he was having a very hard time. But I was talking to him about having done this stand-up comedy and he said I could really do with a laugh at the moment. So we tried to have a giggle because he was literally losing tens of millions of pounds. And I said to him you know, can you see anything funny about you know what's going on for you in in the difficulty, difficulty of it? And he, he thought for a minute and he said well, I did promise my clients consistency and I am consistently losing the money that's good, and it was just his ability to find something light in the heaviness of losing tens of millions of pounds for his clients.

Nick Williams: 12:07

That kind of was his saving grace in a way. Yeah, and, and you know, again, it's doing it appropriately, but sometimes people just won't have a laugh because it's all so damn heavy well, it's interesting because diane rumdust wrote this book um, the grist for the mill and everything.

Malcolm Stern: 12:23

Grist for the mill of awakening everything feeds that placeness. So now, these days when things happen to me, I go oh, that hurts. It's like what am I? What am I learning from it? That's, that's what really inspires. What am I learning from this? How do I go through this with integrity and and facing into it rather than escaping from it, actually sort of right, recognizing that we're on a journey where we're being educated in this?

Nick Williams: 12:47

time, yeah, yeah, and and for me, that the education is in letting go of fear and and returning to love. I guess that that's the simple curriculum that we're, we're all on, whether we recognize it or not, and I just do my best to to look at all those places where I'm hurt and scared and afraid and and, as much as I can, bring love and compassion to them and try and be kinder and more loving to myself to begin with and then try and, you know, do my best to be kind and loving to other people yeah.

Malcolm Stern: 13:18

So I've often, I've often sort of like said that, um, psychotherapy, the, the true art of psychotherapy is love. Actually we bring love to that work then then we are then doing the real work, whereas we can often our intellectual intelligence, which doesn't actually get past the that level and actually go down a level deeper.

Nick Williams: 13:41

We just can be just very clever with people and go well, yeah, I know you think you've got some issues, but I you know I can see even more issues and you realize.

Malcolm Stern: 13:50

So, yeah, you know it's so let's take a look at the transition you made from from being, um, a sort of a sales executive into becoming a very pretty profound writer. I know the work we were born to do is is a really iconic book, as I said before, but what's allowed you to make the transition from the business world into the much more caring world, a coaching writing environment that you're in now?

Nick Williams: 14:21

um well, my usual answer to that is, you know, being miserable and suffering a lot um, not a bad answer, by the way.

Malcolm Stern: 14:28

I think actually it's something about actually that, that actually, when we, when we do get confronted with enough suffering, we recognize the need for change.

Nick Williams: 14:36

Yeah, yeah, you know, I. I just you know. I was in my mid to late 20s and thinking what am I going to be like if I'm still doing this in 10, 20, 30 years' time? And my honest answer was I'd probably be an addict. I'd probably you know, I was drinking reasonably heavily at the time I would have probably ended up in the gutter somewhere, you know, or you know, just given up in a way, or just numbing you.

Malcolm Stern: 15:03

I think a lot of them. There's that great track that ping foy made called comfortably numb you probably. For me that's the the, the epitome of our human condition, um, that we, we numb ourselves and then we don't really experience life. And I know that we've talked a lot about this, that actually there's something about facing into, not allowing ourselves to get numbed or also distracted.

Nick Williams: 15:25

But to face what happens in our. Yeah, you know, I think I probably came across the prophet by khalil gibran. You know, when I first got involved with alternatives, and one of the lines I always loved was you know, the the deeper sorrow carves into your soul, the more room there is for joy. Um, I've always no. So, you know, in answer to your question, you know I just got to a point where I you know I won't swear, but you know I just thought so did I? Because I'd been involved with alternatives for a year or two.

Nick Williams: 15:55

You know, our friendship was an important part of that. I just felt like there is another world that I belong in. I, I, I don't really belong in the business, corporate world. You know, I've been there, but I never felt like I belonged there. There was another world I felt like I belonged in, which was the personal development, spiritual growth world. I thought this is what I would love my life to be about.

Nick Williams: 16:19

But obviously it's very different to being an audience member, to thinking I could make a career out of it. And I had no idea whether I could make a career out of it or not, but just something inside me said well, find out. You know you've got to let go to find out. So eventually I plucked up the courage just to quit. You know I had massive, you know overheads at the time because I had a big mortgage on a flat in Fulham and I just let go and I took a few months out and then, you know, when I started moving towards starting my own business as a speaker and as a coach, basically, you know, I fell into a black hole of depression for a while.

Nick Williams: 16:56

You know, the image I often had was like I had put a lid on so much pain, I had put a lid on so much suffering of mine and because the structure of a job and all those things have been taken away from me, it's like the sewer just burst and it's like there was just all this stuff I had to begin to face and and I've been facing it for the last 30, 40 years and and you know I'm still dealing with it but a lot more, a lot more of me now is more confident and more potent and more myself. You know the power, you know I suppose if my philosophy were one thing, it's really it's like the power of being who we truly are and increasingly over the last 40 years I've been less of the the roles that I thought I should be and more of the essence of who.

Malcolm Stern: 17:45

I truly am, and I think that's the challenge of life, isn't it To really be the essence of who we are? Not having to behave in a particular way to get acknowledgement from people, but we're actually being who we are? Yeah, but talking about pain just now, I just thought of another Gibran line from the prophet, which is your pain is the breaking of the shell.

Nick Williams: 18:05

Yeah, this is your understanding and I just think that's so profound yeah, you know we have to break a shell and you know as they say. You know you have to smash a few eggs to make an omelette. It's not always pretty to begin with you know, for it was not pretty, you know.

Malcolm Stern: 18:21

But you wrote this wonderful book about the work we were born to do. What was the inspiration for that? Because I know that sort of that really gave you a big launch pad as well. That sort of made your name to some degree.

Nick Williams: 18:36

Sure, yeah, yeah, it's what you know. If people do know of me, it's probably what they know of me for generally. Yeah, yeah, it's what you know. If people do know of me, it's probably what they know of me for generally. Yeah, I don't know why particularly, but it seems to be part of my calling.

Nick Williams: 18:54

You know, my sojourn on this earth this time around, that part of my, you know my calling is to talk about callings, if you like. You know, you know, and I think I got this first belief from listening to Marianne Williamson one day, and you know she said we all arrive here with a calling etched upon our heart and I just thought what a beautiful expression. You know, we all arrive here with a calling etched upon our heart. Now, did anybody ever tell me that I had a calling etched upon my heart? No, upon my heart now. Did anybody ever tell me that I had a calling etched upon my heart? No, um, but I felt, you know, I just had this deep sense that I was here to do something, you know and that, and I didn't know whether that was deluding myself or whether that was a true calling. But the only way to find out was to follow it and see where it led me. Um, so, yes, you know it's been a heck of an adventure, but you know, yes, you know, I seem I guess it's why I was first attracted to alternatives, because alternatives was about pioneering in consciousness and exploring frontiers of consciousness.

Nick Williams: 19:56

And I guess, in a way, I've been a pioneer. You know, I've pioneered new ways of thinking about work. I've pioneered new ways of thinking about work. I've pioneered new ways of thinking about leadership. I've pioneered new ways of thinking about power, about. You know, I wrote a book on my journey with my mom and her dementia. You know, new ways of approaching dementia.

Nick Williams: 20:18

And to me, you know, in a way pioneering sounds very grand but it's more about well, how do we do things more lovingly, how do we do things more inspiringly?

Nick Williams: 20:28

You know, because for me inspiration has been a core part of what my life's been around is following a sense of inspiration, and I'm also fascinated and again, I think it's one of the reasons I was drawn to alternatives in the first place was, you know, just the whole idea of human potential. You know, I don't know that we call it this so much today, but I think in the 60s they talked about the human potential movement a lot more and and I'm still incredibly curious about how much potential is in every human being. Um, you know, just a slight aside, you know I I took up croquet a couple of years ago. I've been playing dawn bowls for a few years and and on sunday I became the, the club champion, singles champion this year, and part of me went. I had no idea I had the potential to be good at croquet in me, but it's just part of that ongoing journey that I'm certainly on and I would hope you know, inspire everybody to be on which is we have no idea what we're capable of.

Nick Williams: 21:26

So you know, I've written 20 books. Now, I had no idea I was capable of writing one book, let alone 20 books. I had no idea I was capable of coaching leaders in their field. I didn't know. All this stuff is in all of us and that's part of what keeps motivating me is to help people understand the untapped but innate potential that's within each of us.

Malcolm Stern: 21:47

I think it's interesting because what I've observed over the years is that the people who are living their potential, their calling, tend to age differently. We tend to feel like we've got a purpose. It keeps us vibrant and alive. We've got a purpose. It keeps us vibrant and alive. I see a lot of. I went to my 50th school reunion and saw quite a lot of old men sitting around at the at the reunion and they were often the ones who'd retired. But I think there's something about really, you know, carrying on being used up till every last drop of you is has been in play as well.

Nick Williams: 22:19

yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, a used-up candle rather than a candle that gets stuffed out, you know.

Malcolm Stern: 22:24

Yeah.

Nick Williams: 22:25

And you know, I think I had this belief that, you know, when we were young, you know, when we were kids, we knew we had unlimited potential. And it just gets, you know, shamed out, not shamed out. I don't think it ever goes away away, but it gets covered up with shame. It gets covered up with criticism, it gets covered up with societal expectations, but I don't think it ever goes away, and that's again. You know, what I've been doing is like facing the layers of pain that that have have blinded me to what was still in me, but I couldn't see it, you know. And to open up internally, you know, open up inside of myself, and realise I was so much more creative than I realised I was as well.

Malcolm Stern: 23:09

Well, it's interesting your book about your mother's dementia, which. I read touched me very deeply, and I think what touched me is that you were able to bring your vulnerability to the writing, and that's where the writing comes alive, where you dare to let the pain be part of the writing as well. That that's also in the frame.

Nick Williams: 23:29

Yeah, you know, I do believe you know that vulnerability is a superpower. You know that most of the people that are unhappy don't allow themselves to be vulnerable. I think you know a big overgeneralization, and I was watching an interview with Chris Martin of Coldplay yesterday and I don't know. I presume this is true because he said it. He said for him every night that he goes to sleep. You know, when he wakes up in the morning he feels like he has to reset himself because all the confidence that was there the day before has dissipated. It's like for him every day he has to believe in himself all over again. I thought, well, if that's true, that's an incredible thing to say that every day he wakes up feeling vulnerable, going. I don't know if I can. I can be this global mega star that I'm supposed to be being you know it's funny, you know, and I think you're right.

Malcolm Stern: 24:22

It is an incredible thing to say and I think probably most people I know who've been mega successful do have that same nagging doubt of the imposter syndrome that arise and also you're only as good as your last gig, so lose it then.

Nick Williams: 24:38

Then it's gradually, you'll seep away yeah, you know, and I I think I've been very judgmental of myself, um, for being so vulnerable so often, but I I've come to accept that is part of my makeup and and I've know I've found more of the strength in me through the vulnerability. But I think, a breakthrough for me. You know, it's partly my kind of bragging rights, so I'll do a quick brag, but I coached somebody about 15, 16 years ago and she's ended up being the producer of all the series and films of Downton Abbey. So you know, we're still good friends and we've done some interviews and podcasts together and I remember her saying to me one day that you know her job as a producer.

Nick Williams: 25:21

She said whenever she believes that, whenever anybody puts their creativity out into the world, they're going to feel vulnerable, and I just thought that was amazing from somebody who's working with world-class talent. You know to say, everybody feels vulnerable. So it's not about avoiding vulnerability, it's about acknowledging it and knowing how to manage it. Because what she was saying was that she wanted to create a workplace where it was okay to come in and feel vulnerable and ask for help. And you know, help build people up so that they could give their best performances. So part of me, when I had that conversation with Liz, said well, if the best people in the world still feel vulnerable, what am I making such a fuss about?

Malcolm Stern: 26:05

yes you know, vulnerability does not exclude us from doing amazing things yes, it's actually often the, the gateway into doing amazing things but I think that you've tapped on something also that's quite important here, which is the the the vulnerability of the creative process. Because I was just just before we came on air. I was um. A friend of mine was playing me this um video that she'd just been singing in and that her brother had made this beautiful video, and the guy who'd commissioned the video obviously had a picture of what he thought the video should look like and match his picture. So he was basically damning the creative process and rang up the guy who'd made the video and said you know, I'm so moved by your video and he was so pleased to hear from me that actually it was like our creativity is such a refined thing.

Malcolm Stern: 27:01

It doesn't come from a place of ego. Usually. It comes from a place of allowing the muse to come through. You make something happen, and I know that you are, you know I like that. We're talking about vulnerability because I think that's a really important facet in the picture we're looking at here.

Nick Williams: 27:18

Yeah, and I kind of you know. Going back to the human bit, I like the idea that most of us are comfortable with the idea of vulnerability, but when it comes to our own, we're not quite so comfortable. That's right, you know.

Malcolm Stern: 27:28

Yes, I'll vote for vulnerability as long as I don't have to do it, you know I think there's a, there's a really fine line there as well, so another friend of mine was being told um that, that, um, uh, that vulnerability is weakness some people think like that, but actually vulnerability is a finely tuned, as you say, superpower as well.

Malcolm Stern: 27:49

can be yeah, can be, can be, but we can also go to the level where we are overwhelmed by our vulnerability, and so it's a really fine line of allowing your vulnerability to be one of the palette of colours that you create with as well.

Nick Williams: 28:05

Yeah, and to recognise that I think I used to think there was something wrong with me because I experienced a lot of vulnerability. There's loads wrong with you Now.

Malcolm Stern: 28:13

I know there there was something wrong with me, because I experienced a lot of vulnerability.

Nick Williams: 28:15

There's loads wrong with you. Now, I know there's a load wrong with me, I just thought there was. But I like that idea of it's a doorway we often have to walk through and it's just part of the human condition. You know, we live in a world that's potentially full of scary stuff. No wonder we feel vulnerable. If we're going to put our gifts out into the world, if we're going to put our individual expressions and the most tender parts of ourselves out into the world, of course we're going to feel vulnerable. You know so. You know what I was going to get at there was. You know, instead of being cross with myself for being vulnerable, I've done my best to acknowledge myself for being courageous and brave and going. That's a risk to put that out there. And you know, we know today, whatever you put out into the world, there's always going to be haters for it.

Malcolm Stern: 29:04

Yeah, that's right.

Nick Williams: 29:05

And the only way of avoiding criticism and hate is to do nothing at all. Um, but to again. For me, it's about dismantling many of those fears and those defenses that you know. Go back to childhood or whatever, and just go. I'm going to put this out there anyway you know, and even if people don't like it.

Malcolm Stern: 29:22

I I guess there's going to be some people that are going to be really grateful that I put it out there, I absolutely agree and I I just want to come back to you the the book you wrote about your mom and dementia and wondering what you learned about dementia in that process of of unwrapping what was happening with your mom oh, the the illness of dementia is is horrible, you know, it's like losing somebody while they're still alive, you know, and for me, a lot of it, and I guess for a lot of us, it's about the feeling of helplessness, you know, you just see somebody going and you can't do anything about it.

Nick Williams: 29:57

Um, and again, kind of having compassion for my own helplessness, you know. And the reason I ended up writing a book, you know, I I do my best to turn my own pain into gifts, if you like. So that was, you know, that was always on my mind, but several of my friends kept saying to me oh, my mum's coming, you know, beginning to develop dementia. Can, can you share some of your experience with your own mum? So that's why I actually put it into a book. Um, what's this, by the way, nick? Um, mum me, white lies and tea. Okay, yeah, my journey into the heart of dementia. Yeah, mum died four years ago now, but I wrote it while she was still alive. But, yes, you know the vulnerability, the helplessness, but, again, you know, so part of pioneering, which I've done in my life and you've done in your life, is you suddenly find yourself on territory that you don't necessarily have a map for Exactly.

Malcolm Stern: 30:54

That's what creativity is, isn't it?

Nick Williams: 30:55

yeah, yeah and that's where I found myself with mom. It's like, um, nobody gave me the handbook on how to deal with a mom with dementia, so I haven't. I didn't write a handbook, if you like, but all I wrote was you know, this is, this is what this journey is likely to be like for you, and here's a few things that I've learned that have helped me along the way. So, for me, part of what motivates me is, you know, I am a coach and I'm a speaker and all those things. But also, I suppose I do my best without it sounding, you know, grandiose to be a guide.

Nick Williams: 31:25

You know, if there's territory that I've been to that I've developed a bit of a map for I'll share the map that I've developed because I know how much I've been to that I've developed a bit of a map for I'll share the map that I've developed because I know how much I've benefited from other people laying out maps for me and going, oh, I think you might find this useful to understand the experience you're having. Yeah, and, and it's just so touched my me that, you know, the people that have read the book and given me feedback on it have just said you know, thank you so much for writing it. It's really really helped me realize you know what I could do and what I couldn't do.

Malcolm Stern: 31:57

Um, and be okay with that it's almost how I feel, like we have a duty to share the learnings that we experience and that we can actually really help support people who go through similar experiences, as you're saying.

Nick Williams: 32:09

Yeah, you know it is. You know our job, if you like, as elders, to do that. You know, if we've got experience that's useful to other people, you know it's kind of selfish not to share it. It's not not for us to to ram it down their throats, but to say, hey, you know, I've been where you were and this is what I came to understand and realize. Maybe this will be helpful for you.

Malcolm Stern: 32:30

Yeah, that's great. Well, nick, we're coming towards the end of our podcast and it's been a really enjoyable conversation, as it so often is with you as well. But the question I always ask at the end is what's the particular dragon you've had to slay, what's the particular hurdle you've had to overcome in order to be who you are? And I'd like it to come spontaneously, so I don't set it up in advance, sure, sure well, it would be the thing.

Nick Williams: 32:54

I think that you, you know you're that inspired this whole thing, you know, I think that what the thing I it sounds so simple the thing I'm most proud of is that I'm still here, that I haven't killed myself. You know, there have been so many times where I've just thought I cannot carry on this. It's too much, too painful. I just give up, and every time I have continued, a new chapter has opened up. So for me, the dragon I've had to slay is, you know, just not wanting to be alive that's very honest and and I really appreciate that, it's funny.

Malcolm Stern: 33:29

I was working in a group recently and someone talked about suicidal tendencies and I told them to close their eyes and I said who else in the room has had suicidal ideation at times? Every person in the room put their hands up. I think being alive is not the easy thing. Where we're always smiling and on Facebook and on camera, we are dramatically challenged.

Nick Williams: 33:51

In this instance, yeah, so yeah, that's the dragon. I've still slayed and you know it may sound slightly glib, but I really do believe it that what feels like a temptation to die underneath it can be an invitation to a new birth. Lovely, because every time I've faced that, I've come out the other side and something has blossomed as a result of it. So it's not just a one-off thing, it's an on. I found it many times through my adult life.

Malcolm Stern: 34:21

Nick, thank you so much, it's been a pleasure hanging out with you here, and we'll be in touch again soon.

Nick Williams: 34:28

Yeah well, thank you, it's been a pleasure. Thank you for inviting me. It's lovely to have done it, so thank.