Malcolm Stern: 0:46

Welcome to my podcast, slay your Dragons With Compassion, which I'm doing in conjunction with my friends at online events, and today I'm interviewing a lovely woman who lives down the road from me, so she's with me in the frame, you'll see, and Karen and I have been friends for a few years, but she has a wonderful story to tell, a few wonderful stories to tell. So we're going to talk about her journey through managing adversity, and that's really what this is about. The whole podcast is really about what we learn from adversity, what we're being educated in and how we function with that. So, karen, big welcome to you, very lovely to see you, and we are looking to do a number of things.

Malcolm Stern: 1:31

I think when I first met you, I met you at a friend's birthday lunch and you'd had an extraordinary experience and let's start with that, because that's a really powerful, powerful thing to explore and I remember I was captivated over lunch that you'd had a sort of a, a of an extraterrestrial not extraterrestrial, but more a sort of like you'd had an experience of, of going beyond your physical body and finding something in yourself. So perhaps you could tell us a little bit about that, okay um, yes, that happened in 2012.

Karen Eden: 2:05

It's a while ago. Um, I'd had a shock. Uh, I was um upset in a relationship that I was in at the time. Something had happened and I was feeling very low and angry as well. And something happened when I went to bed that night is that I've been reading a little bit.

Karen Eden: 2:27

I've been reading about somebody's experience funnily enough with cancer and how they had a turnaround in the way they saw it, and while I was reading this dialogue between this particular person who was ill and the person who was mentoring them, a sort of stillness came into me. It's hard to describe what that is, but it wasn't just inside me, it was all around me, and everything that I've perhaps been trying to do in the past like we do, you know, when we hear people talk about this sort of thing happened in an instant, without me attempting anything, and that was that I was. There was suddenly this deep kind of inner stillness and utter peace that took away all my feelings about everything. It was almost as if I existed. In this stillness, it was like a real. I almost felt like I was.

Karen Eden: 3:33

I wasn't transported anywhere else, I was right there in my bed, but I felt this peace and all the upset feelings just went away and I didn't really know what had happened and I could have got quite frightened, actually, because it was so expansive. But I just sat with it and I went. That night I couldn't sleep, really I wasn't aware of sleeping, but there was what I could only describe like a void, like a dazzling kind of darkness that came upon me, and I was in that void, I was just in it and I don't know how long it went on, for I know that I felt completely safe and totally well, I wasn't frightened anymore, um, but I was the me that I knew and my, the personality that I was aware of, and that the self that I was identified with had disappeared completely.

Malcolm Stern: 4:33

So, in fact, you effectively transcended your ego for a short period. It wasn't that short a period of time.

Karen Eden: 4:39

It was a couple of weeks, but it wasn't even that I transcended it.

Malcolm Stern: 4:43

It happened Exactly. You were no longer in that place. I know people have often used drugs or they've used other things which have sort of taken them into into altered states of consciousness.

Malcolm Stern: 4:54

but you found an altered state of consciousness and that that probably will lead us into the, the two very large things that you've been dealing with yes, um, you mentioned the word cancer, and we'll talk about that in a little while, because you have been given a terminal diagnosis and and I'm very grateful that we're able to talk about that here on. On this, this in this program? Yes, absolutely, but but actually you've dealt with something enormous as well, which was your, your um, your daughter, and and what happened to her in her when she was young yes, do you want me to? Please talk about that.

Karen Eden: 5:29

Well, my daughter, whose name I won't necessarily mention her name, I'll just say I have a younger daughter who is, um, as I speak, still um, suffering really a lot of the time. Um, she, she, she had a stroke when she was nine years old. It was an accident in the gym. Prior to that, she was a perfectly healthy child. She hit her head, no one knew she even had an injury, but it turned out that the, the archery leading to the brain, had been injured and a blood clot had formed over the next few weeks and she collapsed at school and from that time onwards she had a major. We had to be rushed to Great Ormond Street.

Karen Eden: 6:19

What I can say is that, although she, you know she had right she came out of that with. She had to learn to speak again, walk again. Her right side never really fully recovered again, her right side never really fully recovered. Um, she went through so much and it it changed her personality. In a way, it changed her perception of who she was. It was it, and so this, this meant that, um, even though she'd have better times where she was okay and could get on with things, she went by the time she was 20 she started having these mega breakdowns. I mean really bad mental health breakdowns, where she was in and out of hospital. She's been sectioned several times. She's attempted her own life several times. She's now in her mid-30s and she's still struggling with this and in fact it hasn't really got better.

Karen Eden: 7:10

So that was my major grief as a mother. We were very, very. We are close. I'm close to both my daughters and and the whole family suffered, but I was the one really that was there when she was little and growing up, always attempting to make a difference, to change, to make it better for her. That's finding, trying to find a way, and we never could, I couldn't rescue her from this, and that's still hard for me. It's still hard for me. It's the hardest thing for me to talk about really and feel when I do feel it because, yes, now she's a woman.

Karen Eden: 7:49

She has to find her way. I don't know if she's going to make it. You know. You know what that is.

Malcolm Stern: 8:00

I do yes.

Karen Eden: 8:02

And we carry this with us and luckily, I have a very loving family, I have good people around me, I am supported. I'm not on my own, thank God, and I just would love the same for her, because it's very difficult for her to find or be in the relationships she could have been in had she had a more normal life. So, yeah, that's that and I still carry that with me. I mean, that hasn't been resolved really. Maybe I'm finding a little bit more distance, and that sort of leads me into what's happened recently.

Malcolm Stern: 8:36

Well, I think what's happened recently is, you know, I was sort of so struck with how you're into what's happened recently. Well, I think what's happened recently is, you know, I was sort of so struck with how you're managing what's happened recently, so I thought it'd be very useful to look at this in and in this environment, without being sort of um, sort of almost like sort of intrusive, but. But I know that you're very open and that you're very open to talking about with honesty and yeah, and integrity, what's happening for you?

Karen Eden: 8:58

yeah, absolutely, I have no problems talking about it, whatsoever so you were given a terminal diagnosis yes, have you got the tissue there.

Karen Eden: 9:07

Yes, the terminal diagnosis came my way rather abruptly. I mean, I I knew already that I had had a lump in my breast for a while and I chose to treat it in alternative ways. I didn't go to doctors, I was feeling perfectly well, otherwise, my daughter had been a bit worried about that and when my breast, it was in the breast, when it erupted a bit it, it can you know when there's some, when there's a lump in there. She then said to me mum, I think you know I want to go to the doctors with you. You have to show that to a doctor. And um, and I gave into that, I said okay, you know, and I went and and anyway, yes, the doctor took one look at it and um said terminal cancer, which which was, which was a heavy one, because it wasn't the most diplomatic. And if the lady ever watches this, I don't hold that grudge against her because she didn't mean it just came out of her mouth like that and of course that set me off. This wasn't that long ago, it was only about I don't know how long ago, was it three months, two months, three months maybe? And um, and it had spread. Basically, I mean, they did. They then did scans on me and they saw that it had spread to different parts of the body. Um and um, they were saying things like, well, we can give you this and this and this to prolong your life, but you know it will shorten your life and all that kind of thing. And um, what actually happened? Even in the doctor's surgery, it started again. I got this. This time it was a different sort of presence. I felt a great stillness again come over me and I also felt what I can only describe as my spirit. I wouldn't even say it was soul, I would say it's spirit. It was so strongly there. It was like like that, and and because I've all my life I've known that I'm not just this body, it wasn't as hard for me as maybe for some people who are very identified with their, with their physical vehicle, and I already was able to know well. Well, okay, I could accept it If this was my time. It was my time.

Karen Eden: 11:22

And I also understood something about the breast cancer on that side of the body, because I know a little bit about new German medicine. If anyone's heard about that, it's got some interesting ideas about where illness comes from. And I actually met the guy here in Totnes who, who knows about it, and I said to him he said to me which person. I said it's the left breast and I'm a right-handed woman and their diagnosis for that is grief for your child, and so of course that made so much sense quite apart from all the other stuff they were going on about oestrogen based, whatever cancers they that I felt that that was the true cause of it.

Karen Eden: 12:02

Um, you know, having had nowhere to really go really recover from the grief that I've had with Catherine and it's just been there for so many years, and um, obviously the body takes its toll on that, you know, and and and the body is, is, is a living entity in a way, having kind of having reactions to things and uh, but this, the spirit self is totally, it's, totally, is not touched by that and and it's the true being, it's the's the truth of who we are.

Karen Eden: 12:39

And I think I was able to let go in that moment and say, okay, so be it. You know, whatever will be will be, but that's not giving up, it's just accepting it. And the worst thing for me again is dealing with the feelings of my family, especially my daughters. They've been wonderful, I mean especially, yeah, anna, she's. She lives here in Totnes and she was able to. She's been, she's come around. I mean she was very, very upset to begin with, but she's come around and she's been really very, very supportive as well. So, and yes, that was, and that presence hasn't left me. It's still very much with me. I feel incredibly peaceful.

Malcolm Stern: 13:25

And of course, in every major spiritual tradition, religious tradition, there is the still small voice within and it feels like that voice has become enlarged. It got enlarged some years ago. It's had to be enlarged to deal with the pain around your daughter and it's become enlarged again so that you're finding some strength from a place where people often don't find strength or often may find strength at the end of their days. But it feels like something is being born in you, as something is dying in you as well.

Karen Eden: 13:58

That's right. Yes, that's absolutely right, and there's a feeling at the moment of this being. I know it sounds very strange, but it's a teacher, the teacher. There's a blessing in it somewhere and I welcome that. I don't feel like I'm fighting a monster here. Does that make any sense?

Malcolm Stern: 14:25

it makes a lot of sense when you talk about a teacher. I can think about my, my daughter's suicide, which, uh, my book.

Malcolm Stern: 14:32

So you're driving with compassion was about and and obviously when that happens, one is devastated. I was devastated and, you know, smashed up absolutely by it, but, bit by bit, there were hidden sides to it that I hadn't expected or even wanted or even known were there, but I became a bigger person as a result of it. So, like, what I'm seeing is that your experiences have led you to your own growth process. I mean, at the end of the day, we are temporal beings in this, in this body which will, as the buddhists say, it will inevitably age, decay and die, and you're having to face that at an earlier stage in your life than many people. But you are facing it and you are facing it with with. I think you're facing it full-on. I mean, obviously it's it's early days, but you've had a chance to get over some of the shock of the diagnosis and now you're dealing with with what. What does this say to you? What? How do you want to spend the rest of your life?

Karen Eden: 15:36

well, it's a funny thing, but I can't even think about the rest of my life in that way. It's almost like I'm here today. I'm very much in the present moment and I'm also realizing on. I mean, I don't know how far it will go, but I'm realizing that my symptoms are receding. I'm not actually getting worse, you know. If anything, there are improvements, and it's like it's as if the body is responding to the spirit, you see what I mean To the being that I truly am, and at the moment at least, it's not showing any signs of really collapsing.

Karen Eden: 16:27

And so, but if it did, I would take the same. I would take that path with the same peace. Whatever will be will be. That's my, that's how I feel, that's my um, that's how I feel, and whilst I'm here, I live every day with tremendous um um presence. I'm there, you know, with whoever I'm with, and and when I'm eating my meal and I'm enjoying my food again, because one of the things about cancer is that you lose tons of weight, you feel sick as a dog and you feel nauseous and you can't eat anything. And when that started shifting and I got hungry again and people have helped me with this, you know, by cooking great food and you know, I've I actually started to the life started to come back into me, you know, and lots of little things.

Karen Eden: 17:20

I can walk farther, further, further than I could, and things like that. I've got a bit more energy. So there are some improvements. I don't know how long they'll last, or, if it's, I don't know what it will mean, but it's um, if there's nothing about anything that I'm that's happened to me that I can reject, I accept it. It's like I feel, okay, there's a bigger, there's a bigger purpose behind everything that happens to us and I think, unless you know, I can't fight any of it anymore. I mean, I have fought things in my life. I have ranted and raged against what's happened to Catherine, and I have to accept that one too, and she, funnily enough, has withdrawn quite a bit of her energy from me because, not because she doesn't care or love me, but because she knows I need that space.

Malcolm Stern: 18:11

Bless her heart well, I remember being very touched when I spoke to you about her and you said she said to you um, mum, I think I'm gonna have to grow up. I don't have to grow up now, and I just thought that was so moving that actually you know that everything has an impact on the people around us as well, and and it's it's no wonder that you've had an, you know you've, you've had an extraordinary training in some ways with Catherine, um, that actually you've been educated, as I've been educated by Melissa's death. You've been educated by your daughter's terrible injuries and what it's done to her as well.

Karen Eden: 18:50

This very beautiful was it nine, nine years? She just had her ninth birthday.

Malcolm Stern: 18:53

So she was nine years old and suddenly the whole world has changed. In one moment, the whole world has changed. Suddenly the whole world has changed. In one moment the whole world has changed. And in some ways you go into the doctor that that and with your, with your other daughter, anna, and and then that one moment where the doctor said terminal, your whole world changes and then we have to learn to adapt to our circumstances and not to go. Oh my god, this is terrible things that are happening to us.

Malcolm Stern: 19:18

We are being educated in this life, clearly, and I've watched the gracefulness with which your education is taking place, has taken place and I'm pretty sure will take place as this goes to wherever it goes to next. So I think that there's something about our state of mind that is so important. And I was talking to a friend earlier on the phone and she was saying, um, the difficulties she was having with her, her ex-husband, and and I said, um, and I wasn't being trite or sort of, or patronizing, and I said what an extraordinary education you're having. You're having to learn to handle the adversity and what I can see is that you're becoming more and more skilled. And that's what I can see with you is that you're learning to handle adversity in your life and becoming more and more skilled, and obviously that's happened within your background as well, because I know that you grew up in the shadow shortly after Nazi Germany as well. And tell us a little bit about your mother in that environment.

Karen Eden: 20:24

Well, first of all, my mother was German and grew up in Nazi Germany and she was a very, very you know from the age of, I think, what was it? 12 to 16. Those were the war years for her. So she was very much in a pubescence and in her early teenage years she picked up on everything. Her mother was widowed and had three children to take get through that war um, along with a lot of others that were sent um, sent under the from the eastern part block. They sent kids to into the west um, and I think at one point she had seven children with her um and um.

Karen Eden: 21:04

That was a very and my mother was a very sensitive child. She picked up on how all the teachers changed at school and the ones that were in had been, were real nazis. They'd been almost like chosen to be, and they would ask the children what kind of conversations they were having at home. They were trying to pick out who was not in favor of the, you know, the Hitler basically, and all that was. It was a real tyranny and um. And so mum was very, very um aware of who she could speak to, who she couldn't, because they were very anti-Nazi in her family. Her mum was Christian, a good Christian, I mean. It only took the proper Christians to actually stand up and not, you know, not go along with this. And I think at one point, because she refused to, everyone had to go into the Hitler something or other, whether it was for kids, for women. My grandmother refused, and so they took all her money away from her and it was, funnily enough, an SS officer who lived up the road who said, my God, now they're starting on the widows and orphans and he actually got the money back for her. He was disgusted, he knew her and he was very angry that that had happened to her and he had a position of power so he could help. And so not even all the SS people were terrible, you know. They just got caught up in a system like we see all the time.

Karen Eden: 22:32

I mean, that's what happens. And so my upbringing. My mum then came to the UK, met my dad and and I was born and um, and. But I grew up with an understanding. I was always in Germany. My mum took us there a lot and you know I speak German. Um, when I was little my parents lived in Vienna and I and I I was aware from an early age what tyranny looks like because of what I'd grown up with and both my parents thought for themselves. They didn't just count out authority. So I was lucky I had that quite strong. I had quite strong parents.

Malcolm Stern: 23:16

It's interesting, though, because they say the bible says that the sins of the parents are visited on the children, generation after generation. What it doesn't say, I think, is actually the virtues of the parents are visited upon the children, and so I feel like that, that powerful streak in you has passed down through your maternal line. Yes, it has, and you, you are, you know, undoubtedly a strong woman.

Karen Eden: 23:40

Yes, yes, and I think that I think this misery about what you just said, about what it says in the Bible you know what it says is always about sin. You know, what we don't focus on is our light and our goodness, and all religions have been responsible for hammering. You know, whatever population they're part of, you know and and I, just there's just so much I can't go with. You know, I, I'm not of any one particular religion, but I am a very, um, I'm aware of spiritual, very deeply, spiritually awake, if I, if I can say that that's, that's you can say that yes yes, um, I'm not, but I'm not interested in any kind of.

Karen Eden: 24:23

I'm not. I mean I wouldn't. You know, it's up to people what, the way they go and who they, what they believe and stuff, but for me, the most important thing is for people to recognize that, whatever they see as god or divine source, it's there, it's within us, it's right here and I know that, and it's not just me, it's everyone. And, um, I say to people all the time when they're struggling and they're going through something, just come back to your divine inner essence.

Malcolm Stern: 24:52

It is already god, it's right there and we are actually, um, yeah, we're, we're, we're angelic humans I guess that's why the practice of meditation is so important, that it actually stills you enough to allow you to get hold of that voice. But other things will also still us in that way as well.

Karen Eden: 25:08

I know, um, I've always been crack at meditation, yeah, terrible at it, I've tried and I think it's great for some people, but it will come upon me sometimes just by itself. It it's almost like. Sometimes when I'm walking it's like a meditation, because I'm out in nature and I love being. I like being on my own. I like having company as well. We go for walks, but I do like to be by myself, and I often my dad was the same He'd go off on long walks by himself. So I think we have to find that within ourselves to truly feel less attached to the out seeming outside authority of any kind telling us what's right about us and what's what, and looking to it. And I think humanity has been enslaved in that way through always authority, authority, authority. And we are now growing up. We have to.

Karen Eden: 26:02

We've got to grow up, because we're in a crisis situation I mean, we're not going to go all into that, but I do feel that this is a wonderful opportunity for humanity to turn around and think hmm, you know, I've actually got it within me. I've got this within me. I've got this within me. I've got goodness within me because we've been hammered. You're a miserable sinner and you're no good. And yes, you've got to atone and and it's. It doesn't matter which religion you look at, or they're all full of that stuff. Yes and yeah, and of course, there's always, there's always pearls, there's always the good stuff in there as well. You just have to be able to be. You need to discern it.

Karen Eden: 26:44

We need to discern it.

Malcolm Stern: 26:45

No, I get it. It's funny. I was watching a program on Netflix the other day about people who were dying and it was the Zen Cancer Hospice they were looking at in San Francisco.

Karen Eden: 26:54

Oh, wow.

Malcolm Stern: 26:55

And the main doctor there had lost both his legs and one arm in a terrible accident he'd had at 19 years old, and his compassion. I watched him. I think there were about half a dozen people that were part of the program, all of whom died by the end of the program, but his compassion was extraordinary and I thought he's going to be such a. He's chosen the path of doctoring but he's going to be such a great doctor because he's suffered so much and he said he no longer sees himself as not whole, even though his legs and his one hand have gone, and he that was. It was genuine and I think we need more wounded healers who come through it and help others and I know that that's true for you and I know, if I'm able to say so, it's true for me as well and I think you know Melissa's death was such an education for me. You know God, help her. I wish she was. You know I wish she was still here.

Karen Eden: 27:51

Well, she's somewhere. Yes, she is here, you know, that's the thing. Yes, I know that.

Malcolm Stern: 28:00

She.

Karen Eden: 28:03

I'd suggest we sort of shift. We sort of shift, don't we into another state. But, we're really always, we always are, and I think that you know her role in this was obviously huge. Yes, To help you.

Malcolm Stern: 28:19

Well, I think that that's true and in fact, when I wrote my book this sounds weird as well which was about Melissa's death, but also the lessons I learned from that, I felt like she was with me the whole time I was writing it. So, whereas the book normally takes me four years to write, this took me seven months to write, because I felt like I was steered by her and also by the wonderful ben craig, who helped me write it as well. But, um, yeah, so these. We can see adversity in in one way as so, my god, we're being punished by some, some horrible god. Or we can see adversity as something that actually forces us to grow. It squeezes us tight like a diamond, so a piece of coal becomes a diamond yes, that's right.

Karen Eden: 29:00

That's very good analogy yeah, I think so, because what I see is diamond.

Karen Eden: 29:05

I see the, the light, in, in, in, and I love, I love anything that reflects light anyway, and I and I think that that, once we fully appreciate how magnificent we actually are, yes and I really feel that when I meet people, even people who are very downtrodden, who've got problems, who, when I walked around those first days after I got that diagnosis, I felt a massive gratitude for my life. I couldn't feel anything else and I and I and I was in this state of gratitude and and also I felt this kinship with whoever was walking past me in the street. I couldn't feel the separation so much anymore.

Malcolm Stern: 29:52

Yes.

Karen Eden: 29:53

And all I could feel was love. I felt love and I knew I was in a state of grace and I was so grateful for that. And it was amazing how many people beamed at me, smiled, when I was walking along. They didn't know me from Adam, but they were picking it up.

Malcolm Stern: 30:10

Yeah.

Karen Eden: 30:11

And we are each other and, ultimately, that's what we're here to learn. I think we are here to learn, in all our different ways, the truth of who we are, which is one heart, one essence in the divine of whatever you want to call it well, you've obviously conjured up a set of circumstances that's going to deepen and quicken your process as well.

Malcolm Stern: 30:37

Yes, so that's lovely, that's right.

Karen Eden: 30:39

Yeah, nothing's an accident, that's another thing, you know. Or things appear I mean all the horrible things that happen to katherine. I still don't understand why, um, but there will be a reason, and nothing is without its meaning or without its purpose, and I have to trust that she too has her guides, she has her, her.

Malcolm Stern: 30:57

You know that, and that all ultimately will be well, you know, um, that's, that's the thing yes, it's sometimes hard to remember that as well when we, when we do go through enormous adversity. But um, um, I, I can see that you're actually going to ride this circumstance, um, with, with, grace and with dignity as well, um, and I have no doubt about that, and of course you're not in the sort of like the full flush of it at this stage- no, I'm not but, but.

Malcolm Stern: 31:26

But you're preparing yourself for the full flush of it when it arrives. So we're coming towards the end of the podcast and I'm just um. The question I always ask my, my interviewees, is um, what's the dragon you've had to slay in order to be who you are? And when I say that, I'm talking about what's the hurdle you've had to overcome, what's the difficulty you've had to surmount in order to fully be you?

Karen Eden: 31:49

well, I wouldn't say there's one that I could mention in my life. I would say that every time there was adversity whether it was I was hurt in a relationship, or things that happened with Catherine, or or I can think of other examples there's always a reason, there's always a good purpose for everything. If we allow ourselves to get still and see what it is, we're not victims and that's all right. I mean, it's all right for me to say that, so I'm not a victim.

Malcolm Stern: 32:26

I'm not a victim. I mean there are all right for me to say that, so I'm not a victim.

Karen Eden: 32:28

I'm not a victim, I mean there are people who are in situations where they're victimised. There's no doubt about it. I'm not saying that. You know being holier than thou about that. I fully understand that. But ultimately everything will have the bigger picture and we won't see it necessarily straight away.

Malcolm Stern: 32:49

We won't even necessarily see it in our lifetime.

Karen Eden: 32:51

No, we might not even see it in our lifetime, and sometimes there are collective disasters that happen to a lot of people. Who knows, you know, what understanding they come to it, either in this dimension or in others. You know one thing's for sure we don't die and we are immortal beings, and everything that we experience has some value and some meaning somewhere. You know, I do feel that, and I think we're bloody amazing. I think we're amazing to even be here. I think human beings are something else.

Malcolm Stern: 33:30

Yes, I did a podcast with Tim Freak, the philosopher, recently and he said you know, we were pieces of gas and we've somehow become human beings.

Karen Eden: 33:41

Yes, yes, that is what we were. Yes, yes, I mean, yes, I mean. It's an incredible thing.

Malcolm Stern: 33:47

It is. It's an incredible life, with all of its difficulties.

Karen Eden: 33:50

Yes, I mean, yes, I mean it's an incredible thing it is. It's an incredible life, with all of its difficulties. Yes, it's an incredible life. It's an incredible life.

Malcolm Stern: 33:54

It is. It really is, yeah, so thank you very much indeed. It was fun I really loved to see you, karen, and really appreciate you being as open as you were and as philosophical as you are, because I often say to people I often say to people I don't want philosophy on this, but actually when philosophy is born of experience, it's a different ballgame.

Karen Eden: 34:10

Yes, it is. It is a different ballgame. So thank you so much. It's not a theory. It's not just a theory, you're living what you're talking.

Malcolm Stern: 34:16

Yes, and your mother lived. What you're?

Karen Eden: 34:18

talking. She did, yes, she did yeah. Lovely. Thank you so much for being with us.