Malcolm Stern: 0:46

Welcome to my podcast, slay your Dragons With Compassion, which I'm doing in conjunction with my very good friends, john and Sandra Wilson, at online events. I'm very happy to have a really interesting guest for me this morning. I wrote my book in 2020, which was published by Watkins Publishing. The book is called Slay your Dragons with Compassion and it's about the suicide of my daughter, melissa, which has educated me, saddened me, turned me inside out, but done all sorts of things to me, but at the end of the day, I think I'm a better person as a result of what I've been through with my daughter, and so this series has been about how adversity shapes our lives, but it isn't necessarily peeling into that.

Malcolm Stern: 1:36

Everyone has to have deep, deep pain, but we've all had to work through different angles of our lives, and in working through it, often things become more profound. So I'm very grateful to you, etan, you you actually published my book when I don't have lots of social media figures and the normal things that publishers want, but but you believed in what I was writing. And, of course, then I got endorsements from people like eckhart toller and elizabeth gilbert and jack cornfield and and obviously the book struck a chord and it's been a very uh, it's been a very powerful thing for me to do so. Um, it's a real, real delight to to have you on here today and to talk a little bit about your life and and what's shaped you, what's helped create you. So I just want to say a couple of brief things that I know, and then you can add to that as well just to interject for a second.

Etan Ilfeld: 2:25

I just want to say that you know, uh, we're very proud to to publish your book and I think that, malcolm, you've made an incredible contribution to the world. You continue to do so with sharing wisdom, sharing, being vulnerable, and you built a lot of things. I mean, even though you didn't have a big social media following. It definitely was a gamble to support the book, which, again, very proud and very happy with how it turned out. But you had already been a founder of Alternatives, which is an incredible community, and you've had a long track record of basically building and contributing and I think you're an inspiration. So I just want to start off saying that.

Malcolm Stern: 3:09

Thank you very much, aidan, I'm very touched by that. Off saying that, thank you very much, I'm very touched by that. It's lovely, thank you. So, yeah, and to say a little bit about you I mean, I love Watkins Bookstore. You own the oldest esoteric bookstore in London and that's been going forever, and it's a place where, even when I was young, I used to go and wander around and see the extraordinary books that were there and the wide range of subjects that I was starting to become fascinated with in my 20s and 30s.

Malcolm Stern: 3:39

You've also set up Kindred Spirit Magazine, mindbody Spirit Magazine and Watkins Publishing, of course, which is a brilliant publisher, because actually you're publishing books that are dealing with the consciousness movement and you're one of the few publishers that really specializes in that, and your life will have led you to a place where this has become a fascination with you and perhaps you could tell us a little bit about. Oh, I just want to add one other thing as well, which is that you also do something that I found really fascinating, which is you do the each year you do the hundred most influential spiritual leaders and, uh, and, and that's always something I look out for and I go, oh yeah, that's that person's touched my life. We've had most of them at alternatives, um, speaking for us and and it's sort of it feels like a sort of a fun list. I mean, also you've got the mind olympiad, that you've been exploring, which is real fun, which is, which is game. So that's obviously a big part of your.

Malcolm Stern: 4:35

Your life is sort of like things that that sort of spark interest in people. But tell us a little bit about what. What led you to where you are now? And you're still young, of course, from my perspective you're very young and I'm envious. But let's have a look at that, shall we?

Etan Ilfeld: 4:52

Sure, first of all, thank you for your kind words. So yeah, I mean, I guess it's been a very, I'd say, kind of, I guess, an evolving path, because I never really thought that I would own a bookshop and a publishing house and I kind of I hailed from the sciences, I did math and physics in university from my bachelor's degree and then I ended up kind of drifting towards towards the humanities and doing two master's degrees, one, one in film and one in media, and and it in media. And it's interesting. I came to London partially because I felt lost at the time and there was a love interest as well, except for the white lady, which didn't again, which didn't totally work out, and that's funny. That's how life is right, when something draws you somewhere and then changes your life Right, and that's fine.

Etan Ilfeld: 5:59

You know, sometimes, you know, failure in one, in one direction leads to, you know, to a discovery in another, and, and indeed I did, I did discover myself, I guess, in London to some extent, and I ended up starting an art space and running that next to the bookshop, and Tender Pixel was the name of the art space. We ran it for a decade and it was a wonderful, wonderful thing to do, but when the bookshop went into bankruptcy I was very tempted to try and save it. My mom is an astrologer and that was her favorite bookshop, and I was very familiar with the Bodhi Tree, which is another famous bookshop.

Etan Ilfeld: 6:46

Oh, I've been there, it's wonderful, yeah, which closed unfortunately before Watkins went into bankruptcy. I think it closed around like maybe what was it after, I don't remember, but around a similar time, basically maybe slightly after and, and, and I believe that that Watkins is an institution that needs to be preserved. It would give so much light to so many people and and. So, yeah, I bought it from bankruptcy or, as we say, administration here in the UK, and, and then it took a lot of hard work to kind of resurrect it.

Etan Ilfeld: 7:36

One of the things we did was indeed launch Watkins MindBodySpirit magazine, which was sort of it was based a bit on the Watkins review which had existed beforehand, and we added the 100 list, as you mentioned, which is a wonderful way to celebrate the 100 most spiritually influential living people who, by the way, just talking about different lives, yes, there's a lot of inspiring people there, but everybody's got challenges and nobody's perfect, and I always say in the 100 list that you know, you should be your own guru at the end of the day. Like you know, be careful with blind faith. I mean, you've seen different teachers arise, right, indeed, and we've seen that too, and I think sometimes you also have to separate the message from the messenger as well. Right, that's a different topic, right.

Malcolm Stern: 8:19

It's true, and often when I look at you know we've had a lot of these spiritually influential people. Add alternatives and what I've often seen is that they've had to go through their own adversity in order to become who they are. They've had to go through their own adversity in order to become who they are.

Etan Ilfeld: 8:33

So we had Elizabeth Gilbert, who's probably I don't know if she's on your 100 list Probably Sure, she has been, but I think maybe in the last few years she's great, obviously, but I think maybe she's been less influential in the last few years, but she's great. I mean, I read what was her book. I think it was Big Magic a few years ago which was about also the writing process and how you basically you know you need to kind of put in the time if you want the muse to visit you, right?

Malcolm Stern: 9:02

I think that's lovely If you want the muse to visit you, because that's very much my thing is that when I'm running psychotherapy groups I often feel like the muse is with me and I wish I had that wisdom in everyday life. But sometimes the podcast brings out that as well. But but there's something about being visited by the muse and I think that your spiritual journey has been a really interesting one because you've actually sort of elevated spirituality in the uk with watkins magazine, with watkins bookshop, with your publishing um, and with the, the hundred list. There is a sort of sense that you are driving that spirituality and was that always alive in you? So when you were, when you were young, were you sort of like awake to realms beyond our everyday physical realm?

Etan Ilfeld: 9:47

well, yeah, I think, uh, you know, had, I guess, perhaps, an unusual upbringing, that my mom is an astrologer, and it's unusual from my perspective, yeah, and, and my dad, even though he's, he was a physician. He's retired now but he was also very open minded, I think, to to the esoteric, let's put it that way. So we did talk about these things and I think it's interesting because I didn't grow up with a religious upbringing but we were very spiritually curious. And my mom these days, I think her biggest kind of, I guess, like spiritual path is she's like a jubu, you could say, jewish with Buddhism, and she loves Tikhmat Han and has like a weekly sangha that she goes to.

Etan Ilfeld: 10:42

But anyway, but the point being is that I was exposed to a lot of different, I guess, spiritual paths and I guess it's interesting, I've always maintained, I guess, a bit of a also like a healthy skepticism as well, I'm not because of the sciences, but I've also maintained an open mind as well. So it's kind of I've been, you know, I've gone both ways in that sense and yeah, I think that's important, by the way, I gone both ways in that sense and, yeah, I think that's important.

Malcolm Stern: 11:13

By the way, I just want to say that I think there's a term, which you'll know very well, which is spiritual bypassing, and what I've seen is that a lot of people get into spirituality as a way of avoiding the everyday pains of being a human being and the struggle we have in being a human being. So I really like healthy skepticism. We can have skeptics who go. None of this has any meaning. But you're not that at all, are you no?

Etan Ilfeld: 11:40

And I think you know, I think there is, you know, I think that spiritual intelligence is a really important thing and finding ways to well, this is again we'll get into it. But to ground yourself, but yeah, well, this is again we'll we'll get into it. But to ground yourself, but yeah, no, definitely. I think I think being open-minded is you know, and curious, is something we should maintain, kind of like that. That childish state, right, that too often we we lose as we, as we age, right. So I think trying to preserve that, I guess that's that's something I do. I'm still, I feel like I'm still a kid in everything I do, constantly trying to rediscover things and learn things and pick up new hobbies. That's something that's very much a part of who I am.

Malcolm Stern: 12:21

Well, I think that's one of the things that attracted me to you. We've been in groups together, we've hung out together and I think that's one of the things that really gets me is that you've still got that um, it's almost like the beginner's mind, even though you've you've done a lot of work on yourself and you've explored it at great depth, and you've you. I've seen some amazing people, even in the book store I saw um one of them, the main um, was it carmarpa?

Malcolm Stern: 12:48

um, yeah, yeah yeah, uh, it's like you know he's giving a little lecture in the bookshop and I'm Was it Karl Marpa? Yeah, it's like you know. He's giving a little lecture in the bookshop and I'm watching one of the great masters standing there giving this lecture, and you've created an umbrella platform where these people can go there and you've put your money where your mouth is, which is also very important. There's lots of people who are spiritual and sort of like wait for God to deliver.

Etan Ilfeld: 13:12

You haven't been doing that, have you? No, I mean, one thing about me is I like to get stuff done, and that means I mean again you mentioned Elizabeth Gilbert earlier no-transcript, good and done is better than perfect, or something like that. And I think you know, I believe that if you're going to try and create things, you have to take risks and also, sometimes, you know, you can reiterate and you learn from everything. But I, yeah, I'm constantly trying to make things happen and I enjoy creating things and even though sometimes maybe I try and spin too many plates, I will say that, but being able. But the bookshop, I have to say you know that is one plate that brings me so much joy and it's, you know, it's such a pleasure to have all these people coming to enjoy it and also the staff at the shop. Most of them have been there before. I bought it from bankruptcy and it's just awesome to see that there's so much continuity and love.

Malcolm Stern: 14:19

Basically, and you've really been able to follow your path, In fact, one of the reasons I'm doing this podcast. You've had quite a big influence on my life, which you probably know anyway, but one of the reasons I'm able to do this podcast is that I started interviewing people at Alternatives and you came up with a wonderful book by Terence Stamp, the actor the Ocean Falls Into the Drop.

Etan Ilfeld: 14:44

And which is an Osho phrase, right? Oh, ok, I wonder where that came from. I believe so. I think so, yeah.

Malcolm Stern: 14:52

And you very kindly suggested that I interviewed him at Alternatives and we had it as a Q&A between us and it really sort of gave me a sort of feeling that I like doing this work. I like inquiring with people, I like to find out what makes them tick beyond their persona, and I think that's very much in your being as well, from what I've observed.

Etan Ilfeld: 15:15

Oh, absolutely, I love talking to people, I like discovering people. That's why I also have a little podcast and, yeah, that's something that I take great pleasure in is trying to understand people and share wisdom, share knowledge, definitely, yeah. But I want to go back to this idea, by the way you were saying, of adversity, and just to be clear, I mean, I by no means can I say that I figured my life out. I feel just as lost as anyone. I mean, even today, I'm always wondering am you know, am I doing the right thing with my life? You know what's important, what's valuable? Like you know and I think this is a key thing it doesn't matter who you are or where you are. We always are, you know, kind of well, maybe not always struggling, but certainly at some point everybody struggles 100%. But certainly we're always, I think, a bit confused, like and we're always trying to reorient ourselves. And this is, this is one of the challenges of life, right, like, uh, there's never, there's ever an end point yeah, right, I think that's the thing.

Malcolm Stern: 16:22

I remember doing a meditation with pivulai akkan, the sufi leader, at one point, and he was talking about that.

Malcolm Stern: 16:28

We get to a certain stage and then we see that the next mountains they're ahead of us and there's never an end point, which is what you've just said as well, and I think that that's part of the wonder of life as well, that there isn't an end point, that we are continually striving to better ourselves but we're never going to become whatever perfect might look like, and I don't think I'd even want to be perfect.

Malcolm Stern: 16:48

I think what I want to be is in integrity and following the trail that I feel like life has set out for me, and you've certainly followed a trail, and so some of let's come back to the theme of adversity Some of what helps us follow the trail is by overcoming the demons that we have or the dragons that we have inside us, and I'm just wondering what that has looked like for you. We've sort of remarked on it a little bit with relationships that have fallen apart or moving around. I know you've moved around a lot as a child you mentioned to me before that you were the new kid on the block a lot of the time and so you've had to find something inside yourself to deal. Before that. You were the new kid on the block a lot of the times and and you've had, so you've had to find something inside yourself to deal with that. And I wonder if you could look at that a little bit with us sure.

Etan Ilfeld: 17:37

So, yeah, I guess, uh, uh, my, my dad's from the states, my mom's from from israel, and uh, and even though they met in the states, they moved back and forth quite a bit. I think I went like from first grade through high school. I think I went to like seven different schools and I had to get used to kind of, I guess, rebuilding a new, I guess a new life and I think that's definitely had a big impact on me and also switching, sometimes, languages, right. Several times I had to switch even the language that I was studying in from, like English to Hebrew, and you know that definitely had some challenges there, which I think in many ways also taught me to be more flexible and to find myself now.

Etan Ilfeld: 18:38

I guess it's funny because London is a place where I don't really have any family, but I've been able to build, I guess, my own kind of family, so to speak, here, and I guess I learned some of those skills along the way by getting used to kind of building a life in new places and I've been here for 18 years, by the way, so quite a while.

Etan Ilfeld: 18:57

You're not the only kid on the block in London, then, and I'm very happy to actually, yeah, to find a home actually, and I would say, you know, from everything that I do, the bookshop is a thing that in a way, kind of grounds me the most.

Etan Ilfeld: 19:09

Say, you know, from everything that I do, the bookshop is a thing that in a way, kind of grounds me the most. That is, uh, you know, even though it may not always take the most of my time, the bookshop is, you know, that's kind of a sort of anchor for me, um and uh, that's very special. But, yeah, adversity, um, you know, without like revealing all my, like, you know, intimate wounds, that's what I'm trying to do with you, I know, I, I know, I know, but I will say that it wasn't just a love interest, but there also was sort of family. I don't want to get too much into it, but there were some issues with a family member and it led to some heartbreak as well, which was very strange actually to have a situation. See, now I'm being very protective, by the way, I realize.

Malcolm Stern: 19:59

I'm not necessarily going to throw away all your defenses.

Etan Ilfeld: 20:06

Let me just say I came to London in a way that I was a bit lost, I guess I could say, and I had to kind of find myself again, and also that family member, by the way, you know. We rebuilt our relationship, which has been great, I have to say, but there was some, yeah, there were some very difficult things at the time and I, yeah, I went through, I guess, a heartbreak on several levels and and then, basically, kind of yeah, started kind of rebuilding my life and and again, I never thought that I, you know, I get into a bookshop and that, of course, the bookshop led me into publishing, which, yeah, which is obviously a big part of what I do today. But, who knows, maybe my life could have been very different had I not had that heartbreak and had I found something else that led me on another trajectory. I think, in many ways, um, things are very kind of, I don't know, unpredictable, surprising. All of that, I guess, uh, um, yeah I mean it could.

Malcolm Stern: 21:20

It seems like it could have been that your, your path would have been about um, um, making money, being out there in the world, sort of, because you've got a real talent for that sort of stuff as well and to take on a project like Watkins and, by the way, watkins is a very alive bookstore. You have talks there, it's often a place where I'll arrange to meet someone because it's a great environment to hang out in, so you put some real aliveness in it. But it seems like money is probably not your driving factor, although you have, in your time, earned money as well.

Etan Ilfeld: 21:54

Yeah, so I've been a serial entrepreneur and also an investor and I've been able to build a decent I guess you could say nest egg. But I've taken risks along the way and some have worked, some haven't. I've taken risks along the way and, you know, some work, some haven't, but but overall they've allowed me to also get into a position where, you know, I'm not just chasing money and I'm able to take risks and also pursue my passions and and that's true, that's true today. So it's unfortunate that some people can't. You know they have to go out and you know, work a nine to five job and just to make sure they make ends meet. So you know, first of all, it's a privilege to get to a position like that.

Etan Ilfeld: 22:47

But certainly now I can say that whenever I try and do it, it's not just about money. Certainly it's about, you know, I'd like things to be sustainable. Obviously I don't want to just like you know, you know waste money, let's put it that way but although I guess you know there's a space also for charitable ventures as well, obviously. But I think that, yeah, when I look at things, I think about. You know how big an impact will they make, you know how important are they and yeah, and it's, it's, it's wonderful to do that and I think that's something that, yeah, hopefully, I'll be able to do.

Malcolm Stern: 23:23

I I hope for you know, for a long time to come well, you wouldn't look at something like Watkins and go here's a real money-making opportunity. No, and, and by the way, and it hasn't been either.

Etan Ilfeld: 23:33

It's been a project, you know, uh, it's uh, it's been a struggle, uh and uh, uh, and yet it's been worth every every bit of it. You know and uh. So you know that, like, and I and I say I say this, uh to a lot of people I say that the bookshop is something that you know, I, I want to find a way to sustain and preserve at least throughout my lifetime.

Malcolm Stern: 24:00

You know, uh, you know, in this unpredictable world, you know, it's uh, it's nice to know that at least I know we can try and preserve that, you know well it's, it's interesting as you talked, but let's drill down a bit more into what's your passion, because obviously you know, in a broad sphere, spirituality is your passion, the, the consciousness movement, is your passion, and a lot of the projects that you're involved in uh indicate that. What would, if you were to drill down into that a bit and say what drives you, what sort of makes you go? Yes, this is where I want to invest my life, my time, my energy.

Etan Ilfeld: 24:37

Wow, that's a great question. I mean, look, I and I enjoy for myself. I enjoy learning and you know, and this is something that I feel like, I'm a lifelong student, you know, so that's something that's very important for me. But I also enjoy getting involved with things that can share something like that with other people. So the ability to have, I guess, this ongoing learning or, you know, we say sharing wisdom or whatever, but being able to share things that can help people grow, I guess I like that, and whether it's through books or spirituality, or this board game festival that I organized called the Mind Sports Olympiad that you mentioned, in many ways it's about sharing kind of my love for learning.

Malcolm Stern: 25:37

I guess, in a way, if we were to distill that and, yeah, when you talk about that, it's as though it's a norm, but I think that people often switch off. They come to a certain point in their lives and they switch off. Their capacity for learning is no longer visible and no longer tangible in them, and I think what I see for you is a passion to continue to evolve and to let the steps guide you. So Watkins guided you. The shop guided you to the magazines, guided you to the publishing house, and I know these are not probably not enormous money spinners, but they are places where you are able to bring through voices.

Malcolm Stern: 26:23

I know that Terence Stamp, for example, who I mentioned earlier, was very touched that you published his book. Stan, for example, who I mentioned earlier, was very touched that you published his book and that I think it gave him a real opportunity to to drill down into who he is, what drove him, and that was fascinating to me, to see that there was a lot more to him than the very, very handsome actor who made it on this, on the film sets, but actually was deeply drawn to his spirituality. I think that's where you encourage spirituality in the people who you explore with.

Etan Ilfeld: 26:57

Absolutely yeah, and I've always wanted to give a platform for different voices and Watkins itself. We always say it's the most all inclusive, I guess like spiritual place you'll find right. We say all spiritual paths are welcome and yeah, I love that. You know we don't have any particular agenda and I think that's yeah, that's really important. But yeah, certainly it's true that you know the publishing house has been a great place to do that. I mean the art space that I ran Tenderpixel for a decade and then I ended up kind of switching over to publishing because that's where I felt that that became my passion and that was a place where I a platform to emerging artists and new voices and you know, I really enjoyed that. Curating these exhibitions and, yeah, and creating a community, those are things that I find valuable.

Etan Ilfeld: 28:04

It's interesting, you know, to think about how I guess my life has evolved in a way and you know I wonder how you know publishing. Think about how I guess my life has evolved in a way and you know, and I wonder how you know publishing also is changing. I wonder what. You know what the future will hold. You know, I'm curious about all these things. We've also got a new initiative recently called the Watkins Wisdom Academy, which is an online courses platform that we've been developing, and I think that's a nice initiative. So, yeah, we're I'm constantly experimenting and trying to yeah, trying to figure out new things, but I guess in many ways they have a very you know, there is this overall kind of this yeah, this, this, this similarity, this sort of narrative. It's still kind of running through it all and, um, yeah, but I I'm curious as to where things will be 10, 20 years from now.

Etan Ilfeld: 28:54

I I'm not sure exactly how my life will look. The bookshop again uh, I'm pretty sure I look like an idiot if anything changes. But the bookshop I uh, you know, I like I said it's it's. It's uh that that I want to keep as is and I don't want it to change too much. Obviously it changes with whatever books are are trendy, but I want to keep as is and I don't want it to change too much. Obviously it changes with whatever books are are trendy, but I want to preserve its uh, authenticity, if that makes sense.

Malcolm Stern: 29:14

Well, I do feel like when I walk into welkins, I will I walk back in time. You know, it's like this sort of you know there's the sort of like the, the great wisdom teachers are all there in in the shop. I don't know any other shops like it and I think that that is a real passion. But I think what I'm getting the theme of, of what you do, is that you provide platforms for people. You provided a platform for me, you provided a platform for Terrence Stamp, you provided a platform for many writers, people who had something to say, and I think you're a curator in some ways. It's almost like you create something that goes okay. You've got something that that goes okay. You've got something to say. If you can put it across in a way that's that's feasible, I'll.

Etan Ilfeld: 29:54

I'll support it and that's that's been amazing from my perspective personally well, I mean, it's, it's, it's always, it's always a great way to get to work with someone like you. So you know it's uh yeah. And when they have interesting things to say, that you know it's uh that people also find that are moved by that's. That's, that's wonderful, right? Uh, we're all we're all looking to, looking for, for insight.

Malcolm Stern: 30:14

Well, I think I like to think that at least yeah I think that's true, but I think it would have been very easy for you to set yourself up as as a teacher and to sort of like to use your platforms for you and and I can see that that hasn't necessarily been you know, you have wisdom, you've had lived experience, but somehow you haven't gone into the ego space where it's like you're making it yours. You're clearly the curator, you clearly care about it.

Etan Ilfeld: 30:41

Sure, well, it's interesting. I mean even my podcast, which is like maybe it is my podcast, but even that it's not about me. Maybe it is, it is my podcast, but even that it's not about me. It's really. It's all about me interviewing people about their lives and primarily, their books. Usually, what you know, I'll have someone in the podcast, I'll I'll read their book beforehand and just discuss the book and again, it's a way to kind of go into their life. So, yes, it's, it's true. Um, I don't feel the need to be front and center.

Malcolm Stern: 31:08

Uh, you know, I think that's what's important and most of the people I know who are in this game have. It's almost like their ego drives them to be front. It's very rare to find someone who's willing to actually keep the platform raised, and you've done that, oh doing that, Thanks.

Etan Ilfeld: 31:27

Well, I, you know, I that's, that's very kind, I guess. Yeah, I don't see myself as a spiritual teacher as well, you know. So.

Malcolm Stern: 31:36

It's funny because I've worked with a lot of people who do see themselves as spiritual teachers and sometimes you go you're joking, aren't you? Because we have such a capacity to delude ourselves. And again, do I see myself as a spiritual teacher? I think I have traveled a fair distance and I've got something to bring to the process.

Etan Ilfeld: 31:55

I think, I think, I think I'm, I'm happy to you know, I, I, I do see you as a, as a spiritual teacher.

Malcolm Stern: 32:02

That's very kind of you. Thank you, that's lovely. So we're coming towards the end of our of our podcast, which is their, their sort of um, um I. I really enjoy talking to you and, as I've often enjoyed talking to you about you know what makes you tick, what, what's your driver? And the question I always ask at the end of the of the podcast is the same question, but it's like something. I want to come spontaneously and to see what emerges from it, and that question is what dragons have you had to slay in order to become who you are and what obstacles have you had to overcome in order to be the person you are now?

Etan Ilfeld: 32:39

Wow, okay, that's the end, and I didn't really throw you a curveball.

Etan Ilfeld: 32:46

This is the soft finish. Yes, let me see it's funny. Well, I think, look, we mentioned earlier again, without getting too much into it, you know, life is all about kind of challenges and we're all going to, you know, step in shit. Sometimes that's going to, you know, in shit. Sometimes that's gonna, you know, it's gonna impact us more than others sometimes. You know, like I said, I know I I'm, I'm divorced. Now I'll say that, you know, I had a wonderful relationship for 12 years, uh, with a beautiful woman. You, you met her, uh no, she's lovely yes and again, no regrets.

Etan Ilfeld: 33:26

She's still, you know, a good friend, uh, and we have a beautiful daughter together, which is wonderful. But I think the point is like you don't always know how things are going to turn out. You know and, and I think you know and, and, and I guess sometimes you know it's interesting like this is I'll throw back a question to you. Like you know that when, when things happen that aren't that, I guess, like I don't know easier, not what you wanted in life, like you know sometimes, uh, sometimes you can also I guess it sounds cheesy, but obviously you can, you know you. It helps make, make you who you are at the end of the day, right.

Malcolm Stern: 34:08

I think that's the theme of the podcast actually is that that's the key, and I think it's not so much that it's cheesy. I think we either have to find internal resources and grow with the difficulties or we go. I give up. It's all too difficult, and I've never seen you give up in the various things you're doing. It always flows from one thing to another. And also, I think, give up in the various things you're doing. It always flows from one thing to another. And um, and also I think you know you, you mentioned that and this is this is reasonably rare. I don't think there's such a thing as an easy divorce.

Etan Ilfeld: 34:39

I think when, when you do split up, this was, this was, this was incredibly, uh, I'd say, special and beautiful, and it goes to show, I guess that's a very fortunate thing, like we, uh, you know, we've been able to maintain a lot, of, a lot of love for one another, even in this different stage. And you know, we even go on holidays together as a family. So you know it's. You know, and just to be clear, things are not always easy. Let's be, obviously, even when you're married. That that's, that's true. But uh, I think, like, um, you know, and you know, I still feel like her family is my family. She's very close to my mom as well and, uh, I don't know if I'm, and everything that I do, I try and maintain, like I don't know, an open heart. And you know, yeah, and I guess anyway, yeah, I would like to think that, you know, if you know someone for a very long time, you can maintain something. It's not always this, that's not always the case, obviously, but anyway, I've been very fortunate, we've been able to to maintain that. But as for what shapes us, you know I enjoy being a father, you know as well. That's, that's a, that's a big thing.

Etan Ilfeld: 36:07

We're actually launching a children's imprint next year, which obviously is a little bit of an impact there as well. That will be called Moon and Bird and we'll have a bit of a I'd say like a spiritual angle to it as well. And although we have published before, this is before my time. We started this and we kept doing the series. When I took over Watkins Publishing, we've got a beautiful series of books called Buddha at Bedtime, which are actually quite beautiful. I'll just plug that. But yeah, what's shaped us? What does it all mean?

Etan Ilfeld: 36:49

You know, I think running, also running a business the bookshop, I have to say, has been reasonably kind of consistent and not necessarily easy to run, but in many ways not that challenging. It's more of a I guess not necessarily a simple operation, but it is simpler in a sense. Publishing is so hard, I mean you're constantly trying to create new things and hoping that the world will want them, which in case obviously they did, which is great. And and then you have to. You know we have to manage all these different creatives, people, you know, which is not that easy. You know it's.

Etan Ilfeld: 37:39

Actually publishing has been yeah, it's, it's, it's a challenging business, for sure. It's beautiful, obviously, to be able to get things out there, but it's. It's not an easy thing to do by any means. And then even when you publish a book, trying to basically intuit how many copies you should print, and then you don't want to overprint, because then you have too much stock, and then if you underprint, then you have to maybe scramble to reprint, or when there's demand, you may not have enough copies out there. Anyway, there's a lot of things that are kind of basically, I guess, trying to intuit or guess and figure out, and it's a very dynamic thing. So, yeah, not an easy thing to do but, yeah, obviously in many ways it's amazing to be able to do it. But yeah, obviously in many ways it's amazing, it's an privilege to be able to do it. But yeah, certainly not a simple business by any stretch of the imagination.

Malcolm Stern: 38:39

I just want to go back, aidan, just very briefly, to the fact that you've actually sustained a good relationship with your ex-wife.

Etan Ilfeld: 38:47

Okay, well, we'll go back to that. Cool yes, sure.

Malcolm Stern: 38:49

I just want to go back to that because actually I think about it. I think one of the things I'm most proud of in myself is that I've managed to sustain a good relationship with my ex-wife even though I know you've done that.

Etan Ilfeld: 39:00

I've seen you guys together, uh, oh, yes, you have, that's true, and it's beautiful actually to see and and we've got kids.

Malcolm Stern: 39:08

So it's like you know, I think when we destroy each other, we also destroy a whole lot of other things. So I'm really hearing that that the destructive part of you is quite low and that the the constructed part of you, the part that's constantly out there questing and growing. I have no doubt that, whatever comes your way, you'll deal with it and you'll find that I do.

Etan Ilfeld: 39:27

I do want to say we'll share. I mean that there was a sort of uh challenging divorce that my parents did have. At first it wasn't challenging, but later on it became, it kind of evolved into something quite difficult and I, I know that that left uh, uh, you know, uh, let's say, a bit of a wound in me and uh and and so, and so I want to I hope you know, I want to make sure that I, I don't inflict the same wound on my daughter and obviously, and I want to try and yeah, and preserve something special, you know, with, with my ex-wife, my, my, you know, my daughter's- mother.

Etan Ilfeld: 40:08

So yeah, but again it's beautiful when people people can, can do that, um, yeah, so thanks and yeah for for coming back to that.

Malcolm Stern: 40:16

Yeah, I just, I think it's. It's often we'll do things and we sort of take it for granted that we've done things that, but actually it takes. It takes open-heartedness, it takes a willingness to understand the other, a willingness to move on into a different shape, and I think that that's what, for me, one of the things I've most noticed about you over the years is your chameleon-like ability to create something new, and it's been lovely having you here on this show. I really appreciate it. And, very briefly, you're doing a podcast yourself, and what's that called?

Etan Ilfeld: 40:50

It's very simple. It's just the Eitan Elfield podcast Fantastic, and you know it's very eclectic. We have some spiritual teachers there whose books I've read. We've got Rhonda Byrne from the Secret and Julia Cameron who wrote the Artist's Way, which was a real treat to interview, but then we've also got people like Mochi, who's the best backgammon player in the world and we talked about games. So it is a collective. There's something there for everyone. Perhaps, and some episodes might not appeal to everyone, but yeah, I just enjoy kind of going into these people's lives and blessed to have so many amazing people in my life like you and to do what I do and I'm still constantly trying to figure things out. You know the the most of, uh, of this life that we have, right, that's the ticket, isn't it?

Malcolm Stern: 42:16

so that's lovely. Thank you so much, ethan and um look forward to further communications down the trail, and I really appreciate you coming on today many thanks.