Malcolm Stern: 0:46

Welcome to my podcast, slay your Dragons with Compassion, which I'm doing in conjunction with my friends at online events, and what we're looking at here are ways in which people have come through adversity to be who they are, and most of my guests well, all of my guests will have a story to tell and will have their own particular genius at coming through their own situations that have arisen.

Neil Ben: 1:12

I like that word genius.

Malcolm Stern: 1:14

I thought you would, neil, yes, so Neil is a bit of a genius and he's a brilliant filmmaker, and we'll come to that a little bit later. But I'd like to start with looking at your birth condition. Your birth condition and, um and so, when you were born, you had a bone missing in your neck, I think I was born.

Neil Ben: 1:37

I was born with a condition called clipple feel syndrome, which is quite rare. I've only I think I've only met one other person in my life with the same thing. Um, so, yes, there's a bone missing in my neck, my spine, my hips are tilted forwards, my spine comes out like that, so it curves forwards. So if you look at me on the side, I'm kind of leaning forward and my head's at the top. Um, there is very little flexibility in my spine. Um and um I'm. I would have been seven or eight inches taller than I am, but that's what I've lost in height. Uh, because of my condition. Um, yeah, I've had a few issues with it, but most of the issues I have with my condition are people's attitudes and not the physical difficulties.

Malcolm Stern: 2:28

I think what I've always observed about you is that you carry yourself as someone who has great self-respect, so you carry yourself as though you have um an ease with who you are, and I think that says something about what you've. You'll have come through with having to manage your condition but that's your.

Neil Ben: 2:47

Yeah, no, that's great, that is your perception that's your perception, malcolm.

Neil Ben: 2:52

You see, I don't see myself for disabled. I look out my eyes and I don't see disabled. So I'm just, I'm just some bloke called neil who gets on and does what he does, and sometimes I have a little bit of a backache and sometimes things a little bit, but it's like. So you know, you say I hold myself with you, know at ease, and all that. It's like. So you know, you say I hold myself with you, know at ease, and all that. It's like well, I'm just me, it's if me it's not a big deal, other people I think it is and people say to me many times oh, neil, you're so inspirational and am I allowed to swear on this, by the way, malcolm?

Malcolm Stern: 3:27

minimally, but I think well I won't.

Neil Ben: 3:30

But my thought, if someone comes up to me and says, oh, neil, you're so inspirational you did up your shoelaces. It's like you know. Yeah, it's like no I'm, I just get on and do my stuff, that's me I think that's the thing, and I think I I don't.

Malcolm Stern: 3:46

I'm not looking at this just in relation to your physical condition either. I'm looking at this in who you are. Who you are feels like you've come out fighting.

Neil Ben: 3:56

Absolutely yeah. So you're right there because you know I didn't realise there was anything wrong with me at all when I was little, because when you're surrounded by the love of your family and stuff like that and I was brought up in a very close, loving family I was very lucky there. But it wasn't until I went to school and other kids kind of started pointing out in the wonderful way that children do, that I'm different from them, that I realized there was a difference and I had a decision to make at that point. I was either going to fold under the, the pressure or push back and my thing thing was do you know what? They might be laughing at me, but they're not going to anymore. I'm going to create a clown and I'm going to be a joker and a clown. They can laugh at that instead.

Neil Ben: 4:39

So you know I started doing that and also you know I was in and out of great almost a lot as a, as a, an outpatient, because there was a possibility as I grew I could paralyze myself just by growing because of the condition. So they kept a close eye on me and I remember a doctor saying to my mum at some point don't expect much from Neil, he won't be able to do much, you know. And my reaction was what the do? Do you know? I'm going to show you. And it was. From that point on I thought nobody's going to tell me what I can or cannot do. This is my body, completely up to me, what I do. So no one's going to say no, I can't. And actually, if they say no, I can't, I'm going to be more determined to prove I can do it. So yeah, there is that steely determination.

Malcolm Stern: 5:31

I love that attitude, though, because that's very much the essence of what I'm looking at in this whole concept of slay your dragons with compassion. We have to come through something in order to go. I'm going to be the best person I can possibly be, despite the difficulties that I may have gone through.

Neil Ben: 5:51

I'm not sure whether I'd use the phrase the best person I possibly can be, but I'm going to do what the hell I want to do, and no one's going to stop me doing it.

Malcolm Stern: 5:59

Whether that's best I don't know, but certainly I'm no one's going to stop me doing what I want to do and and you have sort of found yourself in a career as quite an accomplished filmmaker and um, how did that happen?

Neil Ben: 6:15

well found again. It's interesting. Um, when I was 11 I wore my parents got me tickets to see crackerjack being recorded at the bbc and slade were doing a double header and they were my favorite band and that was the day I decided I was going to work in television making programs for the BBC. That was I was 11 and of course go back to school and I tell the teachers I said, oh no, neil, tv's too difficult. Do computers, do maths? Get a computer science degree? And of course I'm thinking, no, I'm going to work in telly. But I did what I was told and I end up with a computer science degree. But I still wanted to make telly and I satisfied my creative desires by doing children's theatre. I was a children's magician.

Neil Ben: 7:06

I volunteered at Great Ormond Street Hospital radio and one of the girls who worked at the radio station also worked for the BBC and she would bring Aerial in, which is the internal magazine and there are ads at the back of the magazine.

Neil Ben: 7:20

And one week there was an ad in their IT department which I was perfectly qualified for. So I applied for it and got an interview and in the interview they said why do you want to work for the BBC and I said because I want to make TV programs, I got the job and I spent the next two and a half years doing two jobs the one I was being paid for and the other one that was sitting in studios, sitting in galleries, following producers. I wrote the opening to one of Blue Peter's shows, I wrote one of their Christmas pantos and started doing little bits of sketch writing for Dick and Dom who were quite young and green then and applying for attachments, which is like when a department can loan you from one department to another in children's or schools TV and in the end, after about two and a half three years of doing that BBC schools TV, we're looking for somebody with a maths background and half my degree was maths and I got loaned from the it department and I never went back and that was in december 1989.

Malcolm Stern: 8:23

So you do the maths well, you've got a master's math degree. I haven't so it's really interesting because it's like it feels like sometimes we look like we're going sideways to get what we want, but actually you managed to equip yourself with some skills that have really served you in getting to where you wanted to be I.

Neil Ben: 8:43

I think you need to be in action, you need to be doing stuff. You need to be. They say lucky people create their own luck. You know, I put a lot of effort in. I applied for maybe a dozen opportunities once I was in the BBC and I didn't take no for an answer and I'd always get wrapped to the second round of interviews and they would always say well, neil, you don't have enough any experience. And my argument was well, how can I get experience if I don't have a chance? So you just have't have enough any experience. And my argument was well, how can I get experience if I don't have a chance? So you just have to create your own experience and your own luck and your own opportunities. And, like I said, that thing that happened when I was little, when someone said no to me and for me that's the trigger to make me even more determined was what kept me going hmm, there is that sort of that fighter in you that will not take no for an answer.

Neil Ben: 9:35

And there's certainly. Yeah, it's still a little bit in it, but he's tired. Now the fighter is more chilled than he used to be.

Malcolm Stern: 9:47

So your career has taken off and you've actually made some. I think you've made award-winning films, yeah I, I, I mean I.

Neil Ben: 9:55

I worked in bbc schools for seven years on programs like words and pictures, number town, mega maths, um. I had a bafta nomination, a couple of royal television society awards um, some educational awards and stuff like that. And I went freelance as a director in the late 90s directing everything from Teletubbies to poker programs, diy shows and you know anything and stuff like that. So, yeah, and then set up my own production company making, um, kids animations and and videos that you could pick up on the till, that Woolworths, you know things like that, those kind of things.

Malcolm Stern: 10:35

Great, and in your personal life you've been married and you have children. I do. Can you tell us a little bit about that?

Neil Ben: 10:44

I have. I'm divorced now. I was divorced 12 years ago, so quite a while ago, even longer 12, 13 years. I've got a 19-, 19 year old daughter now and a 21 year old son um, both great kids. I brought them up on my own. From the age of five and seven. My my ex-wife, had a bit of a breakdown, couldn't cope and and I was left looking after the kids. So I had to kind of fold up my director chair just after I'd been nominated for the BAFTA and step away from the industry for a few years while I brought them up. So Ollie is living with his girlfriend. He's happy and healthy and and doing well, and Amy, she's with me at the moment but she's moving out in the new year to her own place with a boyfriend and they're solid, calm, polite, happy, healthy children and I'm very proud of them.

Malcolm Stern: 11:41

You know I think I've done a pretty good job I think that's pretty amazing as a as a single father, to be bringing up your kids and your aunt, who also to let go of your career, which you'd fought like hell to get hold of and you'd really well yes, I did.

Neil Ben: 11:56

I mean I didn't stop directing or writing, but what I did I kind of pivoted. So I started working in business films and training films and that's where we work, because I made some films for you and stuff like that, so I would use my broadcast skills to help business owners and and trainers and stuff uh, communicate and get their message out there for a while and also made training films for organizations like the Samaritans and and sales training organizations, a bit like John Cleese used to do, using comedy sketches to to make points and stuff like that. So I could shoot that in the day when the kids are at school and edit in the evening. But I didn't have the. You have to be in the edit suite until eight at night, which is what broadcasting used to be always.

Malcolm Stern: 12:45

And what's your direction now you can talk about your age. How old are you now?

Neil Ben: 12:50

I'm 61. Okay, I know I don't look it. You know 61. 61, I'm available, by the way, just so you know, um, but I thought I dropped that one out, um about just about six months after covid. I made the decision because my kids were then teenagers and old enough that I was going to work my way back into broadcasting. You know, I wanted to get back into telly and the focus was on adult comedy drama. That was like in 2021.

Neil Ben: 13:23

At the end of 2021, I got on a director's UK mentoring scheme, so that was for the whole of 2022. I was mentored by ed, by director of red dwarf, vicar of dibbly, french and staunders. He is, or what he still is uk's best sitcom comedy director in the uk and he was my mentor for a year, um, and we would meet once or twice a month and I spent four weeks as his second unit director on Murder they Hope with Johnny Vegas, essentially directing anything he couldn't be bothered to direct and learn so much from him. And the biggest thing I learned was I can actually do it and I don't need to worry. I just said, neil, you just get comedy, you know it. You know you can do this. You just get comedy. You know it, you know you can do this. And I I also started working on my writing, a lot more writing um comedy drama and adult comedy drama.

Neil Ben: 14:20

And for me and I'm very active in this area there is disabled representation is terrible both sides of the camera in the broadcast industry. 25 percent of UK population have some form of disability. Um 20 percent of the UK working population have disability, but four percent or five percent appear on screen and about six percent appear behind the camera, which is not right. So I'm very active quite a lot of other individuals to get more representation on screen. So I specialize in writing comedy drama and working with disabled talent. So, and that's something I started doing when I was making the training films I was making training films to help care workers look after the vulnerable. So I would cast um actors with learning disabilities or physical disabilities, uh, as part of my and it's just like, it's just natural. It's just not a big deal, whereas people make it a big deal.

Neil Ben: 15:24

Um, and then last year I I wrote a comedy heist idea. I had this comedy idea about a team of disabled master criminals who get away with murder not literally, because no one suspects them and I wrote this heist and it's a bit like Hustle meets Ocean's Eleven, but they're all disabled, and it got me on a BBC writers program. So they had 800 script submissions and 10 places and it's a very prestigious bbc writing program, 18 month program and, um, we're about probably three quarters of the way through it. So the first half of the program we had master classes, so two or three master classes a month so we would have master classes from, uh, um, jack thorne on character and structure.

Neil Ben: 16:21

You know we'd be talking to bath, multi-bafta nominated writers and directors about character development and all that, and so all the experience I had working in tv and writing stuff without any training was all now going, oh yes, that's why I did it. Oh yes, and then halfway through we're given a script editor and, um, we have to pick, had to pitch three ideas and they would then select one which we work and we write as a signature piece. And the piece I'm working on at the moment because I'm like three months into that process now I'll describe as called the midwife meets patch adams, set in a children's hospital wow which is based on my time working at great ormond street hospital radio.

Neil Ben: 17:10

I've already written the first draft and two weeks ago I was at a networking event at Sky, set up by this amazing group called the Deaf and Disabled People Working in Television Group, and they basically are the driving force in change. So they set up events between broadcasters and the disabled talent, and I just spoke to about six or seven different production companies, producers, and two of them said we want to see the script when it's ready, neil, you know. So that's where I'm at now. I I don't have the commissions yet, but I have enough people interested in the style of writing that I do what I'm producing to at least have those conversations. So the future is me writing amazing comedy drama that when people watch it they get sucked in and drawn in and then all of a sudden they're slapped around the face with something they didn't expect and they go oh, I didn't think that. And then I'm changing perceptions that's that's.

Malcolm Stern: 18:17

That's wonderful, because I loved what you said before about the um, the, the, the idea you had for disabled mastermind criminal gang. Yeah, and, and I think that's just, it's so far outside the box it wouldn't have occurred to me. I've never seen anything like it.

Neil Ben: 18:33

And you wouldn't be able to write it. Malcolm, I'm not saying that you're not a writer, but without that lived experience, you have to write from your lived experience to make it authentic.

Malcolm Stern: 18:45

That's why my book is something I'm really proud of, because I've so you're dragging with compassion, yeah, from my lived experience of losing a child. Yes, I was able to write about that with authority. Absolutely, you've been able to write with authority on what it is.

Neil Ben: 19:00

You now now one one, one thing that I always very careful with if I'm writing a character with a particular condition, I will always sit with someone and talk with them and research and and get their input, because I don't know what it's like to use a wheelchair. I know what it's like to be belittled for being different and I know what it's like to fight and not be seen for who I am, but I don't know how it is to physically same with if a visually impaired character. I don't know what it's like to lose my eyesight. So I talk with people who do it and then I have some amazing conversations and and people would just they're funny. I was talking to a visually impaired comedian once and I was asking her what's the biggest struggle you have, um, and she said you know what.

Neil Ben: 19:52

People always come up and ask me how do I know when my dog's done a poo? You know it's like I wouldn't even consider that and then from that, what grew because this is how my mind works is good. I wrote a sketch about a blind person with a guide dog walking down the road. The dog doesn't poo. A goody goody comes up and says oh, let me help you, I'll clear that up for you, and then someone else says, oh no, you can't do that, you've got to let them do it themselves, and and then it kind of builds and builds and it's like about a dozen people standing around this shit that's on the floor and she's walked off and got on the bus, you know, and it's like I would not have come up with that had I not had a conversation with but it's like that's kind of how my mind works.

Malcolm Stern: 20:35

So it's making it fun but also making people think, oh okay, all right, didn't think of it that way it reminds me of the um does he take sugar program I don't know if you know that program that used to be on the radio which is basically a disabled person is being wheeled around by his carer and someone is making them a cup of tea and says to the carer, does he take sugar? As though he doesn't exist. And I think what you're doing is you're drawing attention to the fact that some people who we wouldn't see what their struggle is or what their situation is, you're drawing attention to that no humorous way, no no, no struggle.

Neil Ben: 21:12

Where's that word struggle? What's that word struggle about, malcolm? That is your perceptions. You see, the thing is and this is what's so wrong about the way people who do not have lived experience of disability they always thinks it's so much harder. It's not. I'm bloody lucky. My stuff is so physical. I've had visible, I've had to work on it. I have no psychological issues because I've had to work on my stuff, otherwise it would have killed me. There are so many people walking around with stuff going on that's hidden, that they never deal with, and it's eating them up and they're struggling way more than I am. So I think you need to change that perception and your viewers need to change that perception well, in fact, by having this dialogue with you, I'm already being challenged in my perception.

Malcolm Stern: 22:05

Yeah, the good thing, because it's something I don't think about normally.

Neil Ben: 22:09

I know and that's, and that's what I'm trying to change. So this is why a group of master criminals getting away with stuff, and people think I mean that the leader of the gang. She's a woman called sam. I've written her as an ex-paralympian swimmer. Her upper body strength is so strong it means she can do stunts like ethan hunt can do, like being lowered down on bullies and stuff like that, no problem at all, but nobody suspects that she can do it. And being lowered down on bullies and stuff like that no problem at all, but nobody suspects that she can do it. And the guy Charlie, who's visually impaired, he can still crack the safe even when all the lights are off, and it's those kind of things and the thing about someone with a disability that I don't want to say makes them better.

Neil Ben: 22:51

But when you have something that society has not set things up to make it easy for you. So there's a social model of disability that I have a condition, but it's the way society is built that disables me. So I'm sitting in a chair at the moment that is designed that is comfortable for me. I'm more comfortable leaning forward than leaning back most chairs. I look at your dining room chairs behind you, I would not be able to sit on those chairs comfortably. Okay, that is the way society's built your stairs. If I was in a wheelchair, I would not be able to get upstairs. That is what disables lots of people. So people who have got conditions have to be way more creative, have to work way harder in order just to be on a level playing field. Therefore, they're smarter, sharper. You know they're problem solvers.

Malcolm Stern: 23:51

And again.

Neil Ben: 23:52

Most people look at them and think oh, paul, and do they need sugar?

Malcolm Stern: 23:56

yeah, yes, yeah, yeah. I think you are a fantastic voice for scenarios which most people don't think about, because you've got me thinking this morning about a number of different scenarios and I will take this into my thinking You've influenced me.

Neil Ben: 24:16

Yeah, and this is what I want to do in my writing. I want to create great stories that draw in an audience and get them to fall in love with the character stuff, and then have something to the characters when the audience goes oh god, does that really happen? I've done that. Oh, I'll never do that again. You know, it's that kind of thing because it's all fear and everything is based on fear. And if you don't have experience of, or you don't know, you fear. I mean, a lot of people are scared that they might say the wrong things, so they say nothing, you know, or?

Malcolm Stern: 24:56

I don't think that will ever be your problem, will it, neil?

Neil Ben: 24:58

so, um, oh, no, god, no, that's a joke and, and the thing is, disability is the only minority you don't need to be born into, and I think there's that added fear. So it's like. You know, really, a friend of mine um, I used to do musical theater with. We used to sing and dance on the same stage fell off a ladder, broke his back. He's been in a wheelchair now for seven years, you know, and it can happen like that and I think there's a fear in that. It's almost like death. Death is like really scared and people don't want to talk about it. Disability is another one of those. What if it happens to me, would I be able to cope? Therefore, I don't really want to consider it. Therefore, I don't want to connect with it.

Malcolm Stern: 25:40

There's that going on as well but I hear that you're pretty fearless in in how you go out to people yeah, yeah, I know I'm again.

Neil Ben: 25:54

I'm lucky because I've had so many things said at me and said to me and to you. To me I don't give a shit about what people think of me or say to me, and a lot of people do. People are really worried what other people think of them. I don't, because I've had so many people think so many things about me. They're completely and that's a bullshit. I don't, I don't pay any the. The people that I do listen to are my close friends, my family. Of course I'll listen to the really close ones and the real, the ones that I trust and know, but most people I don't give a what they think and and do you also present on camera?

Neil Ben: 26:32

um, I can do. I've been asked to do a few little bits, but that's not an area that I'm pursuing. One of the interesting things, though, is I wrote a sitcom. In fact, I was at Skiros, which you know, and I dreamt this sitcom one night while I was there, and I wrote it all out, and it's kind of loosely based on me bringing up my kids.

Neil Ben: 26:56

So it's about a single dad that brings up his kids, who both tower over him, and I was chatting to the Beeb about it, who really liked it, and the commissioning editor looked at me and said Neil, do you act? So he had in his mind me as that character, and I said look, if you're going to screen test, I'll screen test as well, but I'm not going to put myself forward. You'll need to make the decision if you think I can do it or not. So, yes, I would be willing, um, but you know it's, I think, the writing. I mean I've at the moment I'm. I've been through a few health things the last few years, and I just really don't want the stress of pushing and being I. I don't have the energy or the drive that I used to have, and it's a new avenue I don't want to pursue.

Malcolm Stern: 27:44

Well, I think, yeah, as we. What I'm discovering as I get older is I'm having to choose what I put my energy into. Yeah, and things I'm passionate about. I'm keeping going, like the podcasts that we're doing here by writing the book, and like running my groups, but a lot of other work has has lessened down because I don't have the same energy I had.

Malcolm Stern: 28:04

Yeah, I agree you said something about your you know you wrote about your kids towering over you. Yeah, have you? Have you had conversations with them about that and has that been an issue in your family?

Neil Ben: 28:16

No.

Malcolm Stern: 28:17

No, great no. Nor should it be as well.

Neil Ben: 28:22

That's why it's not an issue. You see, that's it. Other people think things are issues. They're not.

Malcolm Stern: 28:27

Yes.

Neil Ben: 28:28

You know. I mean there were issues that my daughter got bullied at school because I have a disability. That's an issue, and can you imagine what that's like as a father to have your child bullied because of you know? And so I went into the school and talked about bullying and disability and put an end to it and it created an amazing episode for one of the sitcom. You know the sitcom idea I wrote and it's like you know how would leo, this character that I wrote, basically deal with it? And of course he deals with it very dramatically. You know his thoughts are being bullied. How would you deal with it?

Malcolm Stern: 29:04

yeah, so but again I can hear the strength you've got there that you wouldn't just go. Oh, goddess, you know like I'm. We're caught in this scenario. You'd step up and and and present something of a school here's the thing you, you have a choice in life.

Neil Ben: 29:19

Everything that comes along, you can either be a victim to it or just say, well, that's how it is, get on with it. You know, and not mostly. A lot of people play victim, and when you play victim and when you say, oh, it's raining, or my back hurts, or the, the, the, you're giving your power away and there's nothing, you that you can't change the situation. Whereas if you say, okay, I'm a bit achy, today it's not a particularly nice day, yeah, but I can still make something of it, I can still get on it, or I'll make a conscious decision right, there's the sofa, there's the telly, I'm gonna have a quiet day, I'm gonna recharge my batteries and tomorrow I'll have a strong day, you know, rather than just be a victim to stuff, because when you are, you know, you, you don't get anywhere no, that's right.

Malcolm Stern: 30:10

So we're coming towards the end of our podcast. I always ask the same question as we, um, when we close, which is what's the dragon you've had to slay in order to be who you are? And and that's about, what obstacles have you had to overcome in order to be who you are?

Neil Ben: 30:32

I'm gonna say there hasn't been any and I'm gonna, I'm gonna. I'm going to say there hasn't been any and I'm going to, I'm going to, I'm going to, um qualify that and there is one, okay. So I started my self-development journey, um, about the same time I started telly, so the very early 90s, and I remember going on this workshop which is called getting lighter and it was all about letting go of your problems and the whole premise of it was you all through the day, what is your problem? State your problem, let it go. What is your problem? State your problem, let it go. What is your problem? State from, let it go.

Neil Ben: 31:12

Every time somebody asked me what my problem was, I said I don't have any, I don't have any. And I was hearing people say I've not got a car, I haven't got a mortgage, I haven't got a job. You know, my girlfriend doesn't like all these kind of things, and every time someone said like that, I thought, well, that's not a problem, that's just something to sort out. That's not a problem, that's just something to sort out. By the end of the day, everybody was feeling lighter because they got off all this stuff off their chest.

Neil Ben: 31:38

Me, I was feeling the complete opposite, because the thing that struck me is my problem is the body that I've been given and there's nothing I can do about that. And so that, in a way way, is what my dragon is the, the vessel that I have been blessed with and I say blessed kind of slightly, but yeah, um, is does restrict me doing lots of things and, if I look at it, has made me the person I am. So I would not be where I am now had I been in a sleeker, smoother, taller model. So that is the dragon, but that's why I don't want to slay it, because actually it's also been my gift. So, and it is every day, it's a gift that keeps on giving. You know, if you see me last week and the last few weeks, you know I've had, I've had a, you know, health change, like I said, the last few years and stuff like that, but you know I'm still here. So, yeah, it's this, but it's, it's not a dragon that needs slaying.

Malcolm Stern: 32:58

It's a. It's a dragon that needs nurturing. That's nice. Yeah, in fact, because interestingly, my publisher wanted to call my book tame your dragons with compassion. I thought that's too soft. I want something hard nurturing your dragon claiming yours.

Neil Ben: 33:08

I'm not taming mine. I'm not taming mine, I'm just I'm using it. Use your dragon use your dragon.

Malcolm Stern: 33:17

Yeah, thank you so much, neil. I really appreciate you coming on and right so openly and honestly. There's one thing I know about you is that whenever we speak, you're going to be up front. There's no, there's no sense. You don't get any bs with me.

Neil Ben: 33:29

No, you get it how it is and and I never apologize for what I say it's only you can apologise for the questions that you ask, because it was you that spoke on, so it's all your fault, malcolm.

Malcolm Stern: 33:41

Of course it is. There we go, fantastic. Well, thanks a lot and we'll be in touch again, ok.