Malcolm Stern: 0:46

Hi, I'm Malcolm Stern and welcome to Slay Your Dragons with Compassion, the podcast which I'm doing in conjunction with my lovely friends at Online Events. A very interesting guest today and we're going to have a good wrap. I think this is Pato, who was a professional cricketer and has been through a bit of a journey, but we'll explore that as we go along. Anyway, really, really nice to welcome you here today, pato. Nice to be here Malcolm. Great. So you were a professional cricketer and I think you played for Ireland, did you?

Andrew Patterson: 1:17

If I looked up your blurb, yeah, I played over 60 times for Ireland.

Malcolm Stern: 1:26

That's pretty amazing, I mean. I think it was one of my dreams when I was younger to be a professional cricketer. I just love the game. It's such a meditative, brilliant, skilful team effort game.

Andrew Patterson: 1:39

I've always admired cricketers, and so I would have admired you if I'd seen you in action great time in my life actually, those several years playing for your country and doing professional sporting things and travelling around and stuff.

Malcolm Stern: 1:56

It was basically like sort of playing with your mates, sort of being young again yeah, and getting paid and getting you know the through on the adrenaline, presumably, of being in front of big crowds and all of this sort of stuff. So, and how did you get into the adrenaline, presumably, of being in front of big crowds and all of this sort of stuff? So, um so, and how did you get into you? Were you a natural cricketer from a very young age?

Andrew Patterson: 2:17

um, from a young age I played a lot of different sports and it was actually my, my dad, that played a lot of cricket for the local cricket club and I just got into it through him. And we had a professional at the time called John Selangi who played for Le Morgan, and I just got into a lot by his inspiration and coaching, wise, going down, you know, in the summer holiday mornings and stuff, doing a lot of stuff with him and with my brother.

Malcolm Stern: 2:53

Lovely. And so when did you become a professional? Presumably at a young age. You became a professional cricket player.

Andrew Patterson: 3:01

It was so I started playing for Ireland in 1996. And then from that stage I came over on sort of summer contracts where I was playing at Surrey Cricket Club, county Cricket Club. And then in 2000 I went to Sussex County Cricket Club and played there Probably not the best decisions to play for those two clubs with Alex Stewart being the keeper, I was the keeper, two clubs with Alex Stewart being the keeper, I was the keeper as well, alex Stewart being the keeper, sorry. And then Matt Pryor being the keeper at Sussex.

Malcolm Stern: 3:38

Interestingly, alex Stewart was one of my heroes when I was young, and a cricket fan, oh yeah totally the same.

Andrew Patterson: 3:46

actually it was quite surreal and quite bizarre when I went there and was in sort of in the same change room, same environment as him and growing up having seen him on the tv and one of my idols and stuff watching play well as I see, you know that must have been a real, an incredible buzz for you.

Malcolm Stern: 4:08

I think you know being a professional sportsman is an amazing thing. And then something happened, didn't it? That just smashed your world for a while, and this is the journey that you've been on. Can you tell us a little bit about what happened for you?

Andrew Patterson: 4:21

yeah, I was actually in a cricket match.

Andrew Patterson: 4:24

I was playing with my brother, uh, for the MCC, and I broke my thumb and lost my balance, sort of ran between the wickets and broke my thumb and I spoke to him afterwards and was saying you know, I just thought it was me getting old and was saying do you find this, when you're running, when you're doing things, that you're actually not as coordinated as before?

Andrew Patterson: 4:49

And he was like no mate, you looked awful, you need to do something about that. So I went back and forth to different specialists, different consultants at different hospitals to find out what was going on, and it wasn't until March 2013 that my world kind of changed completely, where I got diagnosed with a condition called hereditary spastic paraplegia, which kind of, in a nutshell, basically the signal that I had going from my brain to my legs my legs wouldn't do what my brain would do too. So when you're sitting there or you're doing whatever and getting your hands to move or whatever to move, and that just happens, naturally it wouldn't do that with my legs and, to be honest, the the diagnosis, after a couple of years going back and forward, was kind of a weight off my shoulders in terms of knowing what it actually was and why I was in that condition.

Malcolm Stern: 5:59

Yeah, I've heard that before from people who've had serious conditions and finally they get it diagnosed and go. Oh well, at least I know what it is. But that doesn't make it a whole lot easier, because there's your life, that you are a professional cricketer, a professional sportsman, enjoying your life, and suddenly everything's tipped upside down.

Andrew Patterson: 6:18

Yeah, I went from professional sport into PE teaching and it was quite a sort of natural progression and I really enjoyed doing it and it sort of got to a stage where I was motivating other people and the kids and the pupils to actually take up sport, no matter what level you're playing at.

Andrew Patterson: 6:44

Because I'm a big advocate at the time then, and even more so now, of how important is the physical activity and everything else that comes with it and the environment that comes with it and how much it progresses you as a person.

Andrew Patterson: 7:01

And when I couldn't sort of do what I did before in terms of the sport and playing and the PE teaching, I was at a stage, to be honest, when I got diagnosed I was like, oh crap, what am I going to do now? And this is where, actually, the school that I work at were very good and very accommodating in terms of what I could do. So I did a lot of work and my role changed around the school with doing stuff with charity stuff, with alumni, with teacher training, with partnerships, all stuff like that. And then it wasn't until sort of 2018 when I it was. Until then it was only my close friends and family that knew I had the condition because you wouldn't have known any difference in my demeanour. To be honest, it wasn't until I needed walking aids to get around that I let people know exactly what was happening with me.

Malcolm Stern: 8:06

I mean, you know we're already hearing an immense strength of character Pato that you've got to have a strength of character to be a professional sportsman. To hit at that level, you've got to have something in you that drives you, and it sounds like you managed to morph into what you needed to do to make your life still worthwhile.

Andrew Patterson: 8:25

Yeah, sorry, malcolm. It sounds a bit bizarre in that I actually kind of regard myself as being lucky, as strange as that sounds Me. Getting this condition was in the realms of, I don't know, winning the lottery. That's not really the lucky bit. Got myself this bit lucky is over the last 20 odd years I've unknowingly or subconsciously been developing the skill of resilience to be able to cope a hell of a lot better with my condition that's very moving.

Malcolm Stern: 9:03

I think I feel sort of touched at a really deep level by you. Better so, and it's it's the basis of this podcast was that I had to find resilience to deal with the suicide of my daughter and and I think we get given gifts by life we don't see them as gifts necessarily. We often see them as like these terrible torments that we have. But something very beautiful has happened for you, and I think you had an experimental operation, um, at some point. So you were meant you were going to be paralyzed, for life was what you were told yeah, basically the.

Andrew Patterson: 9:40

it was around 2021 when the consultant at queen's hospital, in the nato hospital for neurology in queen square, um. The consultant was like you have got it's called spastic paraplegic gene 7 which, regardless of sort of what's going to happen, you're going to be in wheelchair. So my progression was going down, down, using walking aids, having to use the wheelchair more and stuff, and it was actually quite sort of I don't know serendipitous that a friend of mine, ex-colleague at a school I taught in before, contacted me out of the blue to see how I was, how I was getting on, and as part of that conversation he said a friend of his was just back from America having had an operation and had a condition similar to mine. Long story short, it was exactly the same condition.

Andrew Patterson: 10:48

So, after much financial upheaval, I went out to St Louis in America and had an operation which severed two-thirds of the nerves in my spine that lead to your brain, that are responsible for leg movement, and through hard and painful rehab I'm trying to learn new pathways to ultimately walk on the internet again. I can walk 20, 30 metres on crutches at the minute, albeit pretty slowly. That makes such a difference, not having to be in my wheelchair all the time. So for accessibility in the places.

Malcolm Stern: 11:32

getting around and getting out of places makes such a difference and um, you, you, but I think you ran a marathon or you walked a marathon at one point.

Andrew Patterson: 11:43

Yeah, well, I was like I walked, it was 5k. I walked 5k and, uh, it was my daughter that firstly did two half marathons to raise funds to go out and get the operation once I kind of knew that I could do it and she actually raised just over 20 grand for me to go out there, which was amazing, to be honest. Amazing, to be honest. Um, the average time I reckon for sort of 5k running is about 25 minutes. I did it with a three-wheeled walker and it took me just under nine hours.

Malcolm Stern: 12:26

Wow, I mean it's, it's real resilience. Resilience is the word you use and resilience is the word I hear, but actually you are. You know, you're setting an example that we do not have to be crushed by the things that happen to us, that actually we can find ways. I mean, look at the extraordinary. First of all, the synchronicity and jung said that everything is synchronicity the synchronicity of someone knowing someone who'd had a similar operation in the states. And then, if your daughter's love and care for you, that she, she, raised money for you to go out and do what you needed to do to give yourself a fighting chance yeah, it's what you said earlier actually is is very true in terms of I don't know perspective and how you view things, how you look at things.

Andrew Patterson: 13:13

So when this happened to me, pretty much I couldn't take Saturday sport at my school anymore, which I really loved doing. Instead of kind of looking at that as a hugely negative situation, I looked at it as an opportunity where I always wanted to go and watch Harlequins play rugby, and so I got myself a season ticket and go and watch them play as often as possible on Saturdays.

Malcolm Stern: 13:46

Wow. My chemistry teacher at my school played for Harlequins in England, Dave Wrench. I don't know if you ever came across him, Right okay, this is a long long time ago because I'm looking back at my school days in the 1960s, but he was a Harlequins player.

Andrew Patterson: 14:01

With that. It was funny. The school I went to, one of our PE teachers called Brian Robinson was number eight for Ireland and he would on a Friday before the it's the old Five Nations before playing a game on a Friday afternoon he would do what was called bus duty and basically have to be after school to get our solar out and the buses going home and then travel down to Lansdowne Road and play the next day against England, scotland, whoever it was, and this was actually in the amateur era. It was very bizarre and very funny to see that you were with him on a Friday afternoon and then on a saturday I was watching the game on like bbc or whatever it was and he was playing for in front of like 70, 80 000 yeah, lovely, lovely and um, so you've.

Malcolm Stern: 15:05

You've come a hell of a distance and you've probably got a hell of a distance to go. Still, do you, do you have a prognosis of what your future looks like at this stage?

Andrew Patterson: 15:15

yeah, I'm kind of, to be honest, close to baseline in terms of what I can do.

Andrew Patterson: 15:23

I do, as I said earlier. I do a lot of rehab and push through things and doing what kind of is hard at the minute I know will make things easier for myself in the future and I suppose that can be said of anything in life in terms of doing what is hard now will hopefully make things easier for yourself further down the line. So what I would take out of it is not taking the easy option now, which I know will make things harder for myself in the future. In terms of I can see little improvements every sort of three, four, five weeks. It's not a linear curve at sort of an upward uh spiral or upward um last straight line. I have a lot of plateaus and it's getting my head around the fact that you do have plateaus, even though I'm doing a lot of work and getting through a lot of rehab and stuff. But I know that actually, in terms of getting better and be able to do more stuff will eventually happen at some stage.

Malcolm Stern: 16:37

I love that attitude because it's like that's the attitude that sort of you can sort of allow yourself to be doomed. One of the chapters I wrote about in my book was called breaking the spell, and often we get a doctor I could. One of the examples I've given is that a doctor gives us a diagnosis that we've got six months to live, for example, and immediately we're under a spell. So you were told you're going to be paralyzed for the rest of your life, you're going to be in a wheelchair for the rest of your life, and that's almost like a spell that gets put on you and it takes a hell of a lot of depth and courage to get past that and go. I'm going to do whatever I can and then life comes and gives you an opportunity. It's not easy.

Andrew Patterson: 17:13

I can see it's still not easy and I can hear it's still not easy, but what I hear is this immense resolve that actually your character is being formed by what's happened to you and is still being formed by what's happened to you oh, definitely, I would agree with that, and the big thing that I've kind of realized over the last 10 years, wherever it is, is that the one thing and I would say this, inspirational talks and things that go out to you and do with schools and companies and stuff the one thing you're in control of is how you respond to any situation you're in.

Andrew Patterson: 17:50

That's the only thing that you're really in control of. So, for one, I know of a better phrase. If I responded to my situation by being a dick, why would people want to be around me? Yeah, I'm convinced the huge help, support I've had is because I haven't wallowed in self-pity. I've tried to get on with things you know, like, like you said there you know, basically not looking back at what I could do, but looking forward at what you actually can do now, and that is so powerful so there's a, there's a.

Malcolm Stern: 18:30

There's a delicate balance isn't there? Because I think we it's like we can't just be sort of like, right, I'm gonna do now, whatever you. There is a sort of a sense of having to grieve what you've lost, but not in the way of actually you just falling to pieces and going, oh poor me. It's just allowing yourself to feel for what you've lost, but also allowing yourself the the courage to feel I'm going to create the future. I don't know what it is yet fully, but I'm going to create a future that's meaningful and give it everything I've got. That's what I'm hearing from you.

Andrew Patterson: 19:02

Yeah, the big thing for me is that it's actually looking at the direction of where I'm going in life now and, to be honest, I get so much out of doing talks at different places and inspiring others and helping them sort of gain this skill of resilience and, as I said before, there you know the. The one thing that you're in control is your response in terms of whatever situation you're in to me. Uh and this could be, I know, argued for days on end is there a God? Is there a God? But to me, god is a comedian, because not only has he or she taken the attributes from me or the skills they kind of, they kind of they maybe excel at what they did, but they're also trying to take my voice in process, as your vocal cords are muscle and mine are being adversely affected by my condition. But my response to this and again one that I'm in control of, sorry is to have um speech therapy sessions weekly to try and combat this and it's marvelous.

Malcolm Stern: 20:35

You know this, so it's interesting, because I run psychotherapy groups. That's what I do for a living and um and um. One of the things that often happens is I. I say the only swear word we don't allow in the group is sorry, and it's like you know, because we apologize for what's happening for us. But what I'm hearing is something that's deeply touching. I am deeply touched by you and I think your story is an inspiration for so many people as well, including me, and including the listeners and the viewers we're going to have of this podcast. You are offering hope because you're dead right the only thing we have control over is how we respond. Life will throw us whatever curveballs it does, and we have a choice how we respond.

Andrew Patterson: 21:20

I agree totally. And we have a choice how we respond.

Malcolm Stern: 21:22

I agree.

Andrew Patterson: 21:22

Totally as I said, in terms of sort of response, like you were saying, respond to sort of whatever situation you're in. And what I've found as well over the last however many years is, and especially the last year or so, doing different talks and things is kind of having a purpose very good very good.

Malcolm Stern: 21:48

I think that's. You've just hit on a real key here. For me it's one of the.

Malcolm Stern: 21:55

There's a philosopher who said that there are four secrets to happiness in life A sense of purpose, a sense of belonging, a confidant someone you can talk to, and physical exercise you enjoy doing. And I thought that's a bit bland, but it's not bland. It actually is quite realistic that I see a sense of purpose as one of the great things. The machine was just giving me a thumbs up there. I still sense it as one of the great things we have as human beings and I just wonder if I could read you something that George Bernard Shaw wrote about a sense of purpose that I think I'm sort of really touched by what you've and I haven't done this before.

Malcolm Stern: 22:37

I just and this is George Bernard Shaw and he says this this is the true joy in life, the being used for a purpose recognized by yourself as a mighty one, the being a force of nature, instead of a feverish, selfish little clod of ailments and grievances, complaining that the world will not devote itself to making you happy.

Malcolm Stern: 23:00

I'm of the opinion that my life belongs to the whole community and as long as I live, it is my privilege to do for it whatever I can. I want to be thoroughly used up when I die, for the harder I work, the more I live. I rejoice in life for its own sake. Life is no brief candle. For me, it is a sort of splendid torch which I've got hold of for the moment and I want to make it burn as brightly as possible before handing it on to future generations. You're embodying that pato that's what I hear is that you're embodying that sense of purpose, that giving back to the community, that you're no longer able to have the joy of being a professional sportsman and all the adulation and the, the adrenaline and the you know the fun that comes with that and the team teamwork.

Andrew Patterson: 23:50

But you're having to find a sense of purpose that's authentic for you and I see no hint of anything inauthentic in anything you've said so far yeah, you said they're actually in terms of with physical activity and doing stuff as well and on that, actually, from being playing professional sport to peace teaching, to doing cover model work, I was a kind of a fitness fanatic and when I couldn't train like I used to, I noticed a big difference in my mood and mental health and, ironically, doing the rehab after the operation has helped me an awful lot in terms of being more positive with things and doing more exercise and physical activity.

Malcolm Stern: 24:46

Now that's that's really great because you know it's so easy and I think a lot of people do do this it's so easy to go damn it. I can't do this anymore, so I give up. And I I can see that you don't give up, that you have to fight, fight, and you know to do a 5K walk in nine hours is quite something you know from a man who was at peak of professional fitness at one time. But actually there's still a part of you that is going to find what your journey could look like, given your circumstances now and I don't hear you bemoaning your fate either. I hear you sort of going I have to work with what's come with me.

Andrew Patterson: 25:24

I have to take responsibility for it yeah, well, the big thing is that you can't change what is behind you. You can only sort of look at what's in front of you and what you can't do. And this is like I know with dayd, I know with daydreaming, say, loads of people daydreaming what they'd like to be, what they would like to achieve. The way we'd look at that is that there's absolutely no reason you can't achieve that daydream. It's starting to look at reasons why you can achieve it, not reasons why you can't yeah and um, you know you will inspire.

Malcolm Stern: 26:05

You will inspire others. You know, because I we sort of have a sort of like with children. We have this dream about our life being a sort of like a you know something beautiful and amazing and and you know, no, no problems coming our way. But all of us get curved balls in our lifetime way. But all of us get curved balls in our lifetime, um, totally out of my daughter. For me it was also having a heart attack at uh, at uh in 2021, and thinking I was going to die, um, and and there's something about getting a curveball and actually going. I'm going to work with this. I'm going to do what it, what, what I can and what. What brings you joy will also bring others joy. That's the other thing I've learned doing these podcasts. I love doing the podcast. I love meeting people like you who are an inspiration to me and to people who are going to listen to this as well.

Andrew Patterson: 26:51

It makes a big difference in my life yeah, well, in terms of uh, looking at the way you look at things and perspective, in that, it makes such a difference to have a positive outlook, positive mindset. Unfortunately, I reckon, from when we were born, we're installed with a negative culture.

Malcolm Stern: 27:20

Yes, born, we're installed with a negative culture.

Andrew Patterson: 27:21

Yes, so, because how many times have you had a great day or pause experience and you've told your friends, your family, your siblings about that? But compared that to how many times when you've had a bad day or negative situation, you've told people about it it's interesting because they're sort of like the spiritual consciousness movement I'll call it.

Malcolm Stern: 27:44

You know, sort of just in terms of better move thing. There's a lot of people there who are the other extreme, who are what I would call spiritual bypassers, um, and people who sort of like everything's positive and and it's of course it's. That's not true either, but there's what I'm hearing is that you found a space in the middle where actually you're making the most of who you are. You're not denying what you've been through. You're still touched to that. You know, I'm very touched that you are. There are tears in your eyes as you're speaking because this is deeply meaningful emotional connection with your condition and so many of us have become disembodied in this technological age. And you are not. Even though some of your bodily functions have been taken away, you are not disembodied. You are utterly in touch with what you're saying. You are in fact transmitting what you're saying. You're putting it through more than just the words. You're bringing through the energy of what it is to take on a really tough challenge and to stay with it and to find your way through it.

Andrew Patterson: 28:43

Yeah, well, the way I would sort of say is if I can kind of help anyone in terms of having a smoother life going forward, because, as you know you were sort of alluded to there, malcolm that you know life doesn't come in a map, or alluded to their mug and bit you know, life doesn't come on the map.

Andrew Patterson: 29:07

We'll all experience twists and turns, from you know everyday events to more traumatic ones, like the death of a loved one, serious illness, serious injury. But where most people come out the other side, raise me well is because, I'm convinced, is because of resilience. And if I can get more people to gain that skill and it is a skill, it's something you can learn, it's something you can coach, you can build upon. I know I'm building upon my skill of resilience every day and if I can get even it's just one, two people to do that each time I go in summer, it makes such a difference and you playing your part in making the world a better place.

Malcolm Stern: 29:58

It's it's a tiny part, of course, because it's a it's a big place, but it's like you are playing your part. You have not been knocked out of the game by being knocked out of the game of cricket in the way that you were. Yeah, yeah, beautiful dialogue and I'm really touched, pato, that you, that you bring such um emotional honesty and integrity to this.

Andrew Patterson: 30:18

It's like it makes an enormous difference to me to engage with that, rather than some philosophical thought yeah, well, as I said before, in terms of what I've found in feedback, from talk or whatever it's actually, people take it on board more if it's real, if it's something that people have experienced, people have been through, makes such a difference yeah, yeah, that's true, and so um are you?

Malcolm Stern: 30:50

are you married? By the way?

Andrew Patterson: 30:52

yeah, I'm married with three kids and and how.

Malcolm Stern: 30:57

How is, how? Has that been affected by your journey?

Andrew Patterson: 31:00

So not as much with my eldest two daughters, because I was able to do a reasonable amount with them in terms of physicality, as I've grown up more with my youngest son, I couldn't do as much with him as I would like to have done. So it's kind of looking at different ways that I can, you know, engage with him and you know it's maybe not the normal, being a dad, but it's looking at different ways that I can actually stimulate him and help him, because he is quite physical and enjoys his sport and stuff like that. So it's just thinking outside the box and other ways that I can actually stimulate him to be inspired by those different sports he's playing.

Malcolm Stern: 31:59

That's great. I mean it's you know. It's lovely that you know he's got a dad who was really A great sportsman and he hasn't Lost any of that. That verve, and you're enjoying that in him. I can hear that as well.

Andrew Patterson: 32:11

Yeah, well he, he really enjoys His cricket and his rugby Actually. And he's Now just Well, he's what? Is he? 14? He's now just got into rugby refereeing because he's quite astute in that. His rugby's not bad. But he was like do you know what? I don't know whether I'll go to where I want to go and quite sort of forward thinking in terms of injuries, whatever could happen. You don't know, obviously, what's around the corner. But he was like do you know what? I think I can actually make it and do a lot better in the rugby referee, and so that's what he's doing at the minute.

Malcolm Stern: 32:54

And how's your wife been in the process, because obviously it's happened to her as well through you. How has that held up in the relationship?

Andrew Patterson: 33:05

to her as well through through you and held up in the relationship. Well, I I'm quite lucky, I would say, in that she's very positive in terms of just her outlook and life in general. So she's been very good in that right. This is how things are, this is where we are, what can we do, moving forward. So I honestly have taken that kind of mindset a little bit from her in terms of right. If she can do that and she's not the one sort of in this situation but would be the, I know, the backbone of the family type thing and keep things together, then I can do whatever I need to do for her.

Malcolm Stern: 33:48

Lovely. So we're coming towards the end of our podcast. I can't remember enjoying a podcast more than this one.

Andrew Patterson: 33:55

I'm glad I've really enjoyed it, apart from getting a bit emotional and not realising how my voice can go, can you add, including getting emotional?

Malcolm Stern: 34:09

I love that we get emotional. We've been taught to stop all that in our frame, to stop getting emotional. One of the reasons I run therapy groups is to help people express their emotions. Your emotions are real. They are not sort of maudlin self-p real. They are not sort of mortal in self-pity. They're not manipulative. You are touched by what you are experiencing and exploring and to me that's a plus, not a minus.

Andrew Patterson: 34:32

Yeah, Well, to be honest, the first few talks I did in schools I got a bit emotional, talked about things and kind of like you sort of just said there the feedback from it was more authentic and they took it on board more. I was kind of, I mean, as you said, sort of you know, it's maybe a stigma, but I was kind of embarrassed a little bit in terms of letting my emotions get the better of me when I'd been in the teacher environment or environments where I could get up and speak and I know I can speak confidently in front of people. So I was kind of annoyed at myself that that happened. But when it happened when I kind of annoyed at myself that that happened, but when it happened, when I kind of look back on it it was I was thinking to what? Actually that's not a bad thing that that happened.

Malcolm Stern: 35:34

That happened for a reason brilliant and I just want to tell you a little story about that I've discovered, about letting my emotions come through just before we come to um, our closing bit, um.

Malcolm Stern: 35:47

So when I, when my daughter melissa was born, um, we thought she was going to die in in the, in the, in the womb, um, she was ended up being a cesarean from being a home birth, and I went to the hospital and they handed me this baby that had come through and and I took her in my arms and I felt my emotions rising.

Malcolm Stern: 36:05

But because I was in a room full of strangers, I blocked it and at that moment I made a resolve in my life I am going to allow my emotions to come through. So when Melissa died and I give talks quite a bit when Melissa died and I gave a talk and I felt emotions come, I let them be part of the talk and that's a real plus. And when my dad died and I gave the eulogy at his funeral, I allowed myself to sob through it because that was what was genuine and authentic, and I remember someone coming up to me afterwards and saying God, that's really different, but I feel like we are reclaiming our emotional selves and you are also educating people to allow your feelings to be part of what is, because there's nothing to me less than that's interesting, than a dry talk where there's no emotions that are so, um, I really want to honor what you've brought today.

Andrew Patterson: 36:57

Well, that was the same funny. You said that that was the for me. My father-in-law passed away there in August just passed and I got up and spoke at his funeral and got quite emotional. But what I've learned is that, yes, you can get emotional, but actually being able to talk and get through while you're emotional.

Malcolm Stern: 37:23

That's the difference. Yes, emotional, that's the difference. Yes, that's the thing. So, pato, the other thing I've been thinking is that then there must be a book in you. That's that's, that's there. I wonder if you've thought about that, whether there's anything in in the, in the.

Andrew Patterson: 37:34

You know waiting there in the wings yeah, I've actually I'm close to in a book at the minute and it's a self-help book on resilience. I called it second endings how to gain resilience and I'm going in the process. I'll be contacting a few different editors and publishers and stuff to go over this stuff and see what area we can actually get this into fantastic.

Malcolm Stern: 38:07

Well, that's great. I look forward to reading it and I'd also be happy to endorse it if you need any endorsements as well. Brilliant, brilliant, so that's really great. So the the final question I ask people, um, always on this podcast is what is the dragon you've had to slay in order to become who you are? And that means what obstacles have you had to overcome in order to become who you are? And that means what obstacles have you had to overcome in order to be who you are? And that's going to be quite a big question for you, and I also want it spontaneous, so I don't deliberately sort of have you research it beforehand, but have you got a response to that?

Andrew Patterson: 38:35

Yeah, it would be the physicality. Yeah, yes, full stop. In terms of what kind of made me who I was before, was my makeup, personality and stuff was based a lot on physicality. So I've had to, as you say, slaying your dragons, but I've had to sort of not reinvent myself, but rethink about actually how I do things, who I actually am, because you're more than just what you think you are in terms of. I'm more than physicality. I had to think about the different skills and different attributes and different things that I've learned over the last 20 or however many years, and start to put them into practice.

Malcolm Stern: 39:30

Well, I really hope you carry on being the inspiration you've been today on this program to so many people, and I will look out for other speaking opportunities for you as well, paddo, because I just think you've got something to say and I really appreciate you coming.

Andrew Patterson: 39:44

I appreciate that it's been an absolute pleasure, thank you.