Malcolm Stern: 0:46

Welcome to my podcast Slay your Dragons With Compassion, done in conjunction with my friends John and Sandra Wilson. At Online Events I have a range of guests. I don't think I've had any guest as wild as the guest we've got today, and I'm hearing his story. Jay Birch is going to talk to us a little bit about his life. He was an armed robber, a burglar and a meth addict. A very, very wild young man and is now a mentor, a coach, part of the Global Coaching Academy, has spent his life in the last few years really doing good on the planet, whereas before he'd gone screw you to everything that was around. Absolutely. And I love those stories actually of sort of redemption really. That's what I think we're looking at and we'll see what took you to redemption, but I love those stories of redemption. So, jay, big welcome to our podcast here today.

Jay Birch: 1:48

Thanks, malcolm. It's a pleasure to be here, mate, mate, and like I shared with you when we first spoke, is just when I came across you, mate. I was just really drawn to the work that you're doing, mate, and I just had such a great feeling about you and what you're doing and I'm grateful to be having a chat and look what arrived. Can you see?

Malcolm Stern: 2:07

Oh, wow, my book Yay.

Jay Birch: 2:12

Yeah, hey, mate. This arrived two weeks ago, I think, and I've just been finishing off another book, but I started reading this and, mate, the first paragraph just won me over, where you speak about alchemising your experience, turning that fear into wisdom, turning the adversity into something you know of value, which you were talking about in the introduction there, about loving those stories of redemption. So I look forward to reading the book, Malcolm.

Malcolm Stern: 2:43

Lovely. That's great, jay, and I was very excited to have you on board as well. So it feels like life has sort of brought you full circle, and so let's hear a little bit about what. What happened? You know what happened first to take you into the depths, and then what happened to bring you out of the depths and into the light yeah, thanks, mate.

Jay Birch: 3:10

It's been such a big journey and actually it's my 11th year this year clean and sober, so in many ways it feels like 10,000 lifetimes ago, but at the same time it just feels so close. I'm reminded every day about that lifestyle that I lived for so long. And I guess, to answer your question, mate, the absolute turning point I'll start with you there is when I was arrested for a violent drug-related home invasion and serious assault, and that was the epiphany, that was an awakening to me, that was an absolute shock to my system. I've shared this story a lot. It was two days before my daughter's 12th birthday as well, malcolm, and that just even now, I can feel the emotion with that, because just that moment in time the way I explain it is like I came into my body for the first time in several years. It just felt like I landed in my body and I really just got a sense of how far I'd separated from myself and who I truly am and how much harm that I was causing and also how much pain I was in. It was just this moment of shock and awakening and it was nothing really to do with. Oh my God, I'm scared. I'm going to. You know, I'm potentially facing five years jail for this crime.

Jay Birch: 4:37

It was just this real special moment that something switched inside of me. I say a special moment, it wasn't a special moment at all, it was the darkest moment of my life. It was my lowest point, but it was also that turning point. It was also that point where I just came to my sense and was really like, what the hell am I doing? Because I don't come from a lower socioeconomic family, malcolm. My parents are still together, good upper middle class family, and so from that day I've spent so much time in serious introspection about what the hell happened and how I ended up in that world and addicted to drugs and look, it comes back down to some basics of not fitting in at school, getting bullied, being the odd one out, no one being able to put me in a box, being a very bright, enthusiastic, loving young boy, loving the arts as well, which was I copped a lot of ridicule for that, got called gay a lot because I liked music and dance and I was really, but I was really good at sport as well. So people were like, who is this guy?

Jay Birch: 5:46

And basically all that ridicule just caught up with me, malcolm, from a from a young age. It was just there was a series of events which just started to wear me down, the negativity just started to wear me down and I started to think, well, maybe there is something wrong with me. And I, from from a very young age, I was like, well, well, this is really hurting. I don't like this pain, because every time I'm myself and I'm being authentic, it just evoked this ridicule.

Jay Birch: 6:17

So eventually that was just like I've had enough, and so I started thinking, well, maybe there's something wrong with me. And I just started to shut down, mate. I started to mould myself in a way, so to cope, so to survive, so to not get this ridicule, and, and after doing that for a certain amount of time, wearing so many masks and pretending all the time just depending on who I was around, I lost myself in that I didn't know who I was well, interestingly, you say you lost yourself, but what I'm also hearing is that you found an aspect of yourself that you then lived out, and there's a great line in one of Herman Hesse's books and said be either fully good or be fully bad, but don't be lukewarm, because I can't lay my seeds in you.

Malcolm Stern: 7:06

And that's amazing there that you've just said, jay, which is that actually you actually found an aspect of your being which we all have, by the way which is an aspect of negativity and darkness that actually took you into a very, very deep journey. And what you've also described is the classic alcoholic journey of going all the way to the bottom and not being able to find your way out until you hit the bottom, and then you can start to find the way to the bottom and not being able to find your way out until you hit the bottom, and then you can start to find the way through. So it's a really, you know, in some ways it's classic, but you've also gone the whole spectrum and very few people go the whole spectrum.

Jay Birch: 7:42

Yeah, thanks for pointing that out, malcolm. That's very true. It was this darker part of me that came forward and I did. I played that out, and not necessarily did I need to, or maybe I did need to, but either way, I did play it out.

Malcolm Stern: 7:56

Let's hold that a second. So not that you necessarily needed to I don't think we need to do anything, but I think what happened is that a place in you found an identity that was no longer a victim, because you described yourself being bullied, being mocked. Yourself being bullied, being mocked, being killed, being very sensitive, and so what you did is you shut it down, put an iron door around it and brought out sort of bizarro, jay, who's going to do the little nasty stuff?

Jay Birch: 8:24

Yeah, it was that experience, malcolm, of like well, I'm just going to be like fuck you, fuck you. I'm going to turn myself into someone that can't be hurt. But at the same time, by doing that, all I was doing was just walling up my heart. So it was really survival mode and very destructive and I just I started losing myself and the discontent I feel in not being authentic. It just started leading me to drinking, really young drinking when I was 12, 13. And I was working at that age as well, casually, but I was working around meth addicts and criminals, the job that I was doing, which was just collecting trolleys at the local supermarket, and I didn't know they were drug users at that time. But later I realized that I was in this energy all the time of all these older lads who were using intravenously meth, all pot addicts, all living that kind of lifestyle, and so I was soaking up that energy, not even really knowing it, but I'm sure it was having an influence on me. And then my first real job when I left school was the same. It was just it was lads that were in and out of jail that weren't letting on that they were using amphetamine straight away, but they were all smoking copious amounts of pot and it wasn't too long after starting there that I was well, I became aware that they were using ecstasy all the time and also using what we call gear, so methamphetamine so, and eventually it just stuck me in and I I tell you when that got a hold on me, that drug ice, because I'd used a lot of ecstasy that made me feel really good. But when I used ice, that was next level and as interesting as this sounds, it's a big part of the story is it was also a commercial choice. I sometimes call it because I was dealing drugs at the time, malcolm.

Jay Birch: 10:24

I was out of home, I was young, had a young child and my partner wasn't working. I was brick paving, making crap money, and I was using a bit of ecstasy which was making me feel good on the weekends, which was an escape, and I started dealing to make a bit of money on the ecstasy. But the profit margin was very minimal because I was no one and I was only buying small amounts but at the same time making an extra $100 or $150 to me at that time to help the family and that was helpful. Then I found out the profit margin in methamphetamines around the same time as I started using it.

Jay Birch: 11:05

I remember I used all the money I had which wasn't much from ecstasy and I bought one eight ball which is three and from ecstasy and I bought one eight ball which is three and a half grams of meth and I sold that eight ball in an hour. I had enough meth for two days use and I had profit Now for me. At that time I was like, wow, this is what I've been looking for. I'm not going to have to work, I feel good when I'm using the drug. But obviously little did I know well, part of me did know that it led me down this path into really deep addiction and everything fell apart eventually.

Malcolm Stern: 11:44

So, of course, what happens with drugs is that for a while, we're their master and they bring us something. After a while, without us knowing it, the roles reverse, don't they? And you become their servant. And I've worked with quite a lot of people who've been in this position, and it's almost shocking, because you no longer. You lose your power. In the same way as what took you to drugs was a loss of power, what took you in deeper was also a loss of power, and often people don't find their way out and they end up dying. Some of my friends died very young from this whole experience, or they end up sort of becoming embittered, as you say, your heart hardened. But for you, something different must have happened, because you seem to have without just wanting to sound too sort of grandiose about it you seem to have found the light somehow, and and that's what happened- that's exactly what it is, mate, because I'm, I'm not.

Jay Birch: 12:43

I was never destined to die as a drug addict. I was never destined to die as a drug addict. I was never destined to spend 10 years in jail. But these realities were starting to present and I feel, that day, that day when I got arrested, felt like some sort of intervention on some sort. It just felt like life swooped in, was answering my silent screams, which were prayers for help, because I had lost control. Yes, I was absolutely a slave to the drug and I really I explained it like I'd left the building. It was someone else, was in charge, it was an aspect of me, a darker aspect of me. Yet it just felt like life got behind me that day. And Yet it just felt like life got behind me that day and just something happened. Just something stepped in and was like mate, you've gone too far and, yeah, you've just gone too far and we love you, you're loved, and remember who you are.

Malcolm Stern: 13:50

Remember who you are before all of this so let's drill down into that a little bit about something happened. Um, it's almost like an extraterrestrial experience or a sort of sense of guidance that's happening, but it's that when you hit your rock bottom, somehow there's room for something else to step in. It's that still small voice within us that will find a way of communicating, either when we're high as a kite or when we are at our lowest ebb, and so it feels like something spoke to you, and it probably wasn't like this voice that said oh Jay, time for you to move on and change. It feels more like that. Actually, you became aware of a part of your nature that hadn't really had enough say up to that point and, almost as though a door opened. You talked about your heart hardening, a door closing around your heart. It's almost as though a door opened, and this isn't mystical, this is actually expansive. That's what you're describing thank you, malcolm.

Jay Birch: 14:53

That's exactly it. There was like this crack, a doorway in my heart, and it was like this quiet whisper of, uh, a deeper, truer aspect of myself that just got a hold of the reins in that moment. And it was just that turning point of realising again just what am I doing and this isn't me. And I was really remorseful as well because I was causing so much harm. And that hurt, that hurt because it's not my nature. And just in that moment, malcolm, it was just in amongst all of that that was happening, I just made a quiet promise to myself to, no matter what happens, I'm going to turn my life around and not in this way of trying to escape the consequences of my actions at all. It wasn't that. It was because I was willing. I'm like, I want to clean up my mess, I want to make amends.

Jay Birch: 15:50

So if I need to do this time because at that time as well, I'd also skipped Western Australia this was in Queensland and I had warrants for my arrest because I was on bail in Western Australia, someone paid for my bail for surety and I skipped the state and then I got in trouble in Queensland. So I was in trouble, mate. It was a mess. It was a mess, and so I knew I had work ahead of me and I didn't know what it was. But I just made a promise to myself that it doesn't matter how long it takes or what happens. I just want to change. I want to be a better person, I want to learn about myself and I want to bring value to the world.

Malcolm Stern: 16:32

So what I'm hearing is that your conscience reactivated itself. Very often what I've seen in people who are, who have really gone to the depths and stayed there they, when you look into their eyes, they're dead. Their voices don't quaver there's sort of a sense, there's a, there's a. You know something has died inside them and something was dying inside you. But actually dr j stepped in and said right time to actually pick up the pieces here and move on and and it's, it's, it's a story of um, that's. That's one of the reasons I really wanted you on on this show as well is because it's a story for others as well, the people who are in the depths, that maybe something comes through and changes them.

Malcolm Stern: 17:12

So I had an ex-girlfriend and she um, um, she was a pop star and and uh, and was living a very wild and riotous life and then she got cancer and a part of her, when she got the diagnosis, said, thank god, like I've got to change now. She needed something to actually put the brakes on her and make her change and I have a sense that you needed it's like all that happened to you feels like it was part of the journey. It's, it's not, it's not like, oh god, I took a wrong path. It's like that was part of the path. And what I'm seeing is that that when you come to to people and mentor them, you're coming from a place of knowledge, you're not coming from a place of philosophical understanding. And when my daughter took her own life, it deepened my practice. I didn't know that was going to happen, but it deepened my practice because I was no longer the same person I was before, and that's what I'm hearing from you.

Jay Birch: 18:06

Yeah, how could you be after such an event, like these serious events? Yeah, it's interesting you say that, malcolm, because in the work that I'm doing now I'm around very well educated psychologists, psychotherapists, counsellors, people that have been in the industry for a long time and I was a bit nervous at the start stepping into that field, but I've just been welcomed with open hands because they're like your lived experience just has so much value because you've lived it. It's like you're not reading. This isn't stuff you've acquired from a book. You've been to the bottom and you've taken the steps of recovery to get out and to make something of yourself.

Jay Birch: 18:46

And a lot of people don't. A lot of people people stay in the drug scene. They either end up dead or dead inside, but still alive. And a lot of people, especially with methamphetamine, they stay stuck on medication and it can be difficult. So it's been a journey, mate, and let me tell you the recovery was harder than the addiction. Facing all the stuff that I hadn't faced that led me there and cleaning up my mess in the courts, and facing all that was harder than being in active addiction well, that's very much sort of the work that I do in in psychotherapy because I run.

Malcolm Stern: 19:23

My main thing is an ongoing one-year group where I take 16 people for a whole year, one weekend a month and and work with what's going on and what I see in there is that actually in the owning of the, the mess, there's a chance to clean out the basement and actually to move on. And it's often tough and we need support to do. I don't know what support you got. You probably did get some support because it's, yeah, really tough and it's almost like how did you find that support? What does that look like?

Jay Birch: 19:55

thanks. I I initially. I initially, when I came out of jail because from that day I went straight to jail and I was in there for six months and I got out on bail and I just got down to work and business straight away, mate, I was like how can I raise awareness about the dangers of meth? So I started doing interviews with addicts and addicts and I was like I'm going to do a documentary, do stuff for YouTube and in being really forthcoming with that in the community and the word getting out, I met a lovely lady, andrea, who was the CEO, is the CEO of the Australian Anti-Ice Campaign big organisation that have addicts go into schools and tell their story, and they were a huge support network for me during that time. So initially I had huge support from them. I also touched into NA as well for a while.

Jay Birch: 20:51

But for me, malcolm, I got a mentor, a lady that I knew from just before I relapsed. I knew her and I knew she was a great mentor and she agreed to take me on board. So I was paying for weekly sessions with her every week and just and making and she just kept me accountable and she's such she stayed with me for five years, every week, every week. She was my rock and I had all this other support, but she was my rock and the person that I could just go through everything, unpack everything, and a person that wouldn't take any shit from me as well. I don't, because there's not many mentors that could have dealt with me, because I was coming off addiction. I had a lot of stuff going on. It needed to be a strong energy and someone was like that would call me you would have been a slippery bastard, wouldn't you?

Malcolm Stern: 21:48

So that's what's, that's what, yes, one of the things that happens that takes us there. So actually you had who wasn't going to let you slip, slide away, and actually finding that person. It's almost like when jung says that everything is synchronicity. I think we find the right people. We may not even notice them, they could walk past us, but when we find the right person who can actually do that with us, then something magical happens. And what I'm hearing is also the strength of will. You had to make the investment in yourself to do five years of ongoing work because it doesn't go. You don't suddenly go. Oh yippee, I can see I've done wrong, so now let's move on. You've got to go all the way down, dig out the rubbish in the basement so that you can actually start to reform the building. And that's what I'm hearing.

Jay Birch: 22:32

It happened that you you invested in yourself financially, energetically and time wise yeah, very true, I did, mate, and I knew that there was rubbish in the garage, in the basement, like you said, and I wanted to know. I wanted to know what was going on for me, what actually is going on for me. Why am I like this and what do I need to do to change so that she? I love that, I love that woman so much and she's still a dear friend to me, and so without the support, it wouldn't have happened.

Malcolm Stern: 23:04

I'm such an advocate for support in recovery, I'm an advocate for everyone being mentored and working with therapists, but, um, yeah, it would have been difficult without her well, you'll see that one of the chapters in my book is is called creating a sangha, which is a buddhist term for a community of like-minded others, and it feels like you. You set about and are still setting you up because, even though you're leading people in this place now, you're still creating sanglers, you're still part of that uplift from the very difficult world we live in. You know this is. You know you can shut your eyes and pretend nothing's happening, but we are in perilous and strange times and it needs people to stand up and go. Let's support each other in finding our way through. You have become one of the army of the just, rather than the army of the tossers, who are just going to sort of fall apart.

Jay Birch: 23:53

Yeah, thanks, mate, and it's a big part of what drew me to you as well, malcolm, because I knew you did the group work, and the group work just is so important to me. Even now, I have such a core group of support people, colleagues and friends and without that I couldn't imagine my life. Without it, I feel quite independent and able to deal with things myself, and yet they are such great mirrors, they are such great support. They are, you know, they're like family to me and it's so important to have that support.

Malcolm Stern: 24:28

Like you said, Well, they become spiritual family to me, and it's so important to have that support. Like you said, well, they become spiritual family to you. That's the thing is that we have to create spiritual family around us. People who are going to one hold us to account. As william blake said, um, compassion challenge, compassionately given is the mark of true friendship. So not someone who's going to go along with yeah, that's all right, just just you know, let it slide. Someone to go hang on, jay, what are you playing at right now and is going to call you and it feels like your mentor was a big part in that but also the people you started to gather around you. So you started creating the very opposite of what you'd created in the early days of hanging out with people who were basically slaves to this drug process. You started creating people around you who were on the side of the angels, if I put it a bit poetically.

Jay Birch: 25:16

Yeah, lovely, and that's exactly right, mate. And I feel like some people are confused about what love is. They can think that love is overlooking character traits, negative character traits and things like that. Yeah, you're right. The people that I have in my life, their spiritual family and the support that I have, the loving thing to do at times is to say what are you doing here? And pull your head out your ass. What's going on here? That is love, that is support and that's absolutely needed, and that's what real friendship is and that's what real family is. If you don't have the ability to confront because you care about the person, their wellbeing, then that's not true support, true friendship or true love.

Malcolm Stern: 25:58

That's what I do on a Monday morning. I regularly do an hour with a friend of mine and it's inquiry and we've been doing it for about 10 years and basically you get 20 minutes each to talk about what's going on in you. We've been doing it for about 10 years and basically you get 20 minutes each to talk about what's going on in you, and then there's 10 minutes for reflection of what's been seen. And my friend is really tough, so actually he'll sometimes lay into me like whoa and he'll say afterwards I'm really sorry, I was mean to you and I said no, actually I want to be challenged. I'm here because I want to be challenged. I'm here because I want to be challenged. I don't want to let my blind spots run me and what I'm hearing is you've got challenge around you and also you're probably you're a strong character. You've probably been very challenging to your mentees as well.

Jay Birch: 26:41

Yeah, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not afraid to confront people and and and do that. Yeah, absolutely, and it's important, because we all have sneaky parts in our psyches, we've all got blind parts and I don't think you're really going to make process personally, professionally, spiritually. You're not going to grow or develop if you don't have a level of confront and also as a facilitator and mentor, you would know yourself. How can you take someone or hold space for someone or support someone through something where you haven't gone there yourself?

Malcolm Stern: 27:15

That's great, actually, because I remember a friend of mine saying well, you know, you can only go as far as you've gone, so you can't take people that far. It was quite a challenging statement as well, but actually the reality is that's true. The reality is that's true. And after Melissa died my daughter it's like I started being able to take people a lot deeper because I'd been to the hell realms and having that effect on me, and you did it in a much more sort of like, a sort of like a dramatic way as well. But actually that is a very valid part of your journey. Your wrongdoing we put it in inverted commas and look at it is a very valid part of who you are now, jay, isn't it?

Jay Birch: 27:55

yeah, thank you. It's the backbone of why I am the way I am and why I do what I do. It was interesting hearing you talk there, mate. You, you notice the difference from working in the field and the arena that you're in. You notice a difference in how you facilitate it after the experience that you had.

Malcolm Stern: 28:16

I think things that are really that knock us sideways whatever it is, whatever grief or whatever struggle it is or whatever loss it is are going to force us to either change or sink, and neither you nor I are people who go sinking, so that's what I hear. Is that actually, you're learning to swim in different waters, but you're carrying with you all the experience. I just think that's so inspiring for people, so someone could be watching this and go my life's, you know crap, I don't know what to do with it. Um, I've got I've got a young man in one of my groups who sort of can't see the light. I've just said stay with the process. I don't know what's going to happen for him.

Malcolm Stern: 28:55

I said, stay with the process. And he's being loved up by the rest of the group and, and, and I think that he will actually find his way because, um, there's enough care around him and I can't go. I'm going to do this for you, because that's the hubris that sometimes comes into us, but I'm going to hold a space where that's possible and that's probably what you do, jay, as well. You hold a space where it's possible for change to happen despite the individual.

Jay Birch: 29:26

Yeah, beautiful, Absolutely, mate. And one thing I've learned from this journey is there's so much hope in the healing and people can come back from great adversity, and you would have seen that a million times. Malcolm and I know part of this channel. There are people out there that are in despair and hopelessness, that don't think that they can get out of whatever hole they're in. But healing is absolutely possible and that's something that I I make sure that I bring all the time is. Healing is possible. It doesn't matter where you've come from or where you're at where you've been. Healing is absolutely possible. You can change your life where you're at where you've been. Healing is absolutely possible. You can change your life and you can change your life from wherever you are.

Malcolm Stern: 30:16

And a lot of what we're looking at, when we sort of like find our way towards something more noble, something more spiritual, something more affirming, is we're looking to overcome shame. And someone sent I'd like to read out something someone sent me the other day from my group, and what she'd done was to look into shame. And here we go. So what she said is this Shame dies when stories are told in safe places. And and that captured. That captured a lot of what had been happening in the group. And then she also sent something that brené brown has written as well, which is shame cannot survive being spoken. It cannot tolerate having words wrapped around it. What it craves is secrecy, silence and judgment. Stay quiet, you stand a lot of self-judgment.

Jay Birch: 31:18

And so I'm really interested in overcoming shame. That's just so brilliant. That opens my heart hearing that stuff. It's so true, and that's the beauty of a group as well. It's like when that dark thing is exposed and it's seen and it's not judged, it can't hide anymore.

Jay Birch: 31:33

It's only when we're judging it and we're scared of it that it festers away and that's where it becomes dangerous. That's where it can turn into a monster and come out irrationally at the wrong time and cause harm. So beautiful, beautiful, I love the Brene and I love your clients being there. What was it? When stories are told in safe places? Shame dies.

Malcolm Stern: 31:56

Shame dies.

Jay Birch: 31:58

When stories are told in safe places.

Malcolm Stern: 32:00

That's lovely. Yeah, because I think there's been quite a lot of experiments done in prisons as well, where therapists have gone into prisons and worked with really hardened criminals. Um, but actually when they get them to open up and they get them to feel, it's almost like you take off some of the cladding that have been around them and suddenly there's a human being there with all of the little boy needs, the vulnerability and all the rest.

Malcolm Stern: 32:23

Yeah, and so you're going to reach into parts with your story and I'm sure you're already reaching into parts with the work that you're doing which people who are more philosophical, academic or sort of would be holding a place of. This is the textbook way to do. It wouldn't get anywhere near them. But you get to people and so I just wonder if you've got some stories there that have changed, obviously without giving names, but stories of change that you've seen happen as a result of you stepping in.

Jay Birch: 32:59

Yeah, well, there's a few. I've been working with a few people for 12 months a bunch of people for 12 months actually and a lot of them have just started soaring in their life, malcolm, like really really soaring Just from this. I just feel it comes from a space of nothing extraordinary. It's just this natural feeling in me of knowing that someone can succeed, feeling in me of knowing that someone can succeed and they just there's such a championing in me for people to heal, to go within and to face their fears, because I know they can. And so I feel that some, because I've faced so much darkness and challenge coming during addiction and coming through it and I've slayed a lot of demons compassionately because that is, because that's my experience I feel that just naturally I hold that for my clients that you can do it and you do have the courage to face anything and you don't need to let darkness or fear stop you from stepping into what your heart truly longs to do. So there's been a bunch of people that have that. It's just soaring. I'm not going to give details Yet.

Jay Birch: 34:19

What was really satisfying to me as well, malcolm, was during that first period where I was really focused on working with other addicts and people and family support, with people that had loved ones in addiction. That was moving. That was moving to be in the right place at the right time to meet the right person who was actually ready to change. That was moving because there's doorways, there's little gateways and some people are like really at rock bottom and they're ready to change. And there was quite a few moving moments where, because of the, because of the people I knew in the community, I was able to get people into beds that wouldn't usually be able to get beds in rehabs. I was able to set things up for them and that was really beautiful, mate, to to be like there's someone that really wants to change, isn't just taking the piss because a lot of addicts do take the piss and they're just doing it to get out of jail or courts or it's. It's just not real. They haven't hit rock bottom yet. They're not serious about recovery.

Jay Birch: 35:21

And I would be brutally honest with people when I was working with them, like you can't pull the wool over my eyes, you don't want to change. I can see it. I can see it. Come back to me when you're ready. And some would come back to me when they're ready. They're like thank you so much, mate. I just I wasn't ready yet, so that was really. That was really lovely to experience and also the helped me develop non-attachment to the ones that I would lose back to addiction. There was one guy I remember I got him a bed. He was ready to change. He had only been in there a couple of weeks and he had a day out and he did an arm robbery that night and served five years. It was like yeah, it was like yeah, and they're on their own journeys.

Malcolm Stern: 36:07

Exactly, they're on their own journeys. It's very important as mentors and as therapists that we don't carry our clients' journeys with us. We accompany them where we can, but sometimes they'll go. I'm going to explode this, I'm going to sabotage this and, if you take, I used to take everything on. I used to go home at night after a group and sort of like, oh my God, god and go crazy, trying to work out what to do. But actually the bottom line is you stay present with them in the group and you allow the stories to come through and you allow the support structure to create itself and then magic can happen if they're willing.

Malcolm Stern: 36:43

And there's a word I use for this couple of words, some of the sort of that you've said that you reminded me. One is transmission. The first is that when you are talking, you're transmitting something because you've been there. You're not talking from some textbook understanding or some sort of like little experience. You're talking because you've been through the gateways of hell and had to deal with Cerberus, the barking dog that would come at you as well.

Malcolm Stern: 37:08

And then, alongside that understanding, that sort of that place of doing that, you also talked about finding your way through, with not getting caught in your clients' stories, and there's a word I use in groups which is ripe. When someone's ripe, then things can transform. But if they're not ripe, we can use our wisdom to go. What do they need in order to bring them to rightness, or what can we do to make this possible? If we try and shoehorn them through and they're not ready, it's a bit like going to an osteopathy session and they'll click all your bones and you can walk out again, but you haven't changed anything and everything clicks back into a rotten shape again.

Jay Birch: 37:53

And and so there's a yeah of of being wise enough to recognize ripeness when it shows up in your face yeah, something that I'm learning and on ongoing learning, for me, malcolm, when you're sharing now, is just seeing that a vision of like trying to pull at the roots, before they're ready, of a new plant. It's like, no, the plant just needs nurturing, it needs the right nutrients and and cared for and it will grow itself if it's meant to. And I learned that early. That was really quite early on when, with people losing people back to drugs and jail, and it was like I wasn't attached but it broke my heart open because because I know the pain of it and I know the missed opportunity of it, yet I also know that they're their own person on their own journey and it's not healthy for me as a mentor or anyone to be caught up in that at all. Yeah, it was. I'm sensitive and I feel deeply and it hurt when people went back because I just felt the pain of missed opportunity and lost opportunities for them.

Malcolm Stern: 39:01

For them and, like you, maybe they've got to do more to complete their journey Exactly. And we often see that heroic figures if we look back through history, you'll see the heroic figures have often been through enormous pain and change in order to become like Nelson Mandela's an obvious one. He was a, he espoused violence in resisting the um, the apartheid in South Africa, and eventually came to peace in himself and then was able to transmit that and became a light for the world.

Malcolm Stern: 39:34

In the same way as the Dalai Lama experienced his country being taken away from him and finding that he was suddenly. He was almost a nobody and had to become what was truly in him to hatch. So we're all on those journeys and we can't judge the people we're working with, we just go. They're on the next phase of their journey. You can accompany them where you can and not where you can, and and I yeah you know you would be.

Malcolm Stern: 40:00

You would be a blessing for a lot of people who are going through a really difficult place, and I'd love to carry this talk on for ages, because I'm really enjoying, sort of like, hanging out with you and hearing this great experience. You know you're educating me through your experience as well and, um, thank you, but we're coming towards the end of the podcast. But there's a question I would ask towards the end of the podcast, which is what's the particular dragon you've had to slay, what's the hurdle you've had to overcome to be who you are?

Jay Birch: 40:32

oh, that's a big question I know and I don't.

Malcolm Stern: 40:35

I deliberately don't set it up in advance so you don't have it all written out nice and neat and tidy.

Jay Birch: 40:40

So just let whatever happens to that question take root in you the, the, the very destructive part of me, the part that has caused me so much grief, and that dark part in me is just. There's just so much pain in that part, malcolm. It feels so disconnected. It just feels disconnected and alone and separate from life and that part hasn't been completely slayed. Malcolm, that is a big chunk of my beingness.

Jay Birch: 41:32

Yeah, absolutely, I have reined that part in and there has been a great deal of healing. Absolutely. Yet that part still rears its head up. We're still forming a relationship and it's not completely slayed yet. And, to be honest with you, malcolm, I don't know if that will not completely slayed yet and, to be honest with you, malcolm, I don't know if that will ever be slayed. I feel like I'm raising that part up in me. I feel like I'm healing that part, raising that part up in the service of love, because there's so many qualities in that part that I love and they've just been misguided. Yet directed in the correct way and channeled into the correct way, then that part raised up could, is, is very valuable, a part of part of me that's lovely, jay.

Malcolm Stern: 42:22

Thank you for digging deep in yourself to go there as well, and it it reminds me of something randos said, who was a wonderful. I was very, very fortunate to study with him.

Jay Birch: 42:32

I heard that and I love that too, because I love Ram Dass.

Malcolm Stern: 42:35

And he said we never get rid of anything. And that's been so important for me to realise that he said. But ultimately, what we can hope for is that these deep, dark demons inside us become like schmooze, become like little pieces of dust that you can blow on and they just blow away, and so we don't get rid of it, but we learn to befriend it, to build it into our psyche.

Malcolm Stern: 42:58

As you say, you love aspects of it as well, and I think that the journey of becoming whole is probably if I'm to look at this sort of like realistically, it's probably the journey of several million lifetimes, exactly, rather than in this life exactly I'm going to become old and and so I think the lack of arrogance in that place and it's not going.

Malcolm Stern: 43:16

Yeah, I've cracked it all, and one of the reasons I insisted on keeping that title slay your dragons with compassion because my publisher suggested tame your drug dragon. No, if you've actually got to get them and you've You've got to pull them out. Aiming is not enough. It's like learning to dance with them. That's the thing.

Jay Birch: 43:34

Yeah.

Malcolm Stern: 43:35

Yeah, absolutely. Thank you for being such a wonderful inspiration today, jay. It's been a really, really enjoyable dialogue and I hope we have more of this and find another way of connecting as well. But I'm very, very grateful to you for the journey you've been on, for the willingness to share it and for the work you're doing out in the world right now.

Jay Birch: 43:56

Thank you so much, Malcolm. It's an absolute pleasure. It's been fun for me, mate, and lots of love. I love the work you're doing and, yeah, I'd love to chat again or connect sometime as well.

Malcolm Stern: 44:07

It's fun the way I do it.