Malcolm Stern: 0:46

So welcome to my podcast, slay your Dragons with Compassion, which I'm doing in conjunction with my friends at online events, and I'm very happy to welcome Michael this morning, who I actually I did a podcast for him on his Better Beings podcast, which is a really was a really enjoyable experience, and what I was interested in with Michael is that he's bringing a very humanitarian stance to quite strong business impact and I'm quite interested in how that developed. There's a sort of a humanitarianism that goes with you, michael, but there's also this sort of like quite sort of obviously good businessman who's been in it for a long time, so perhaps we could take a look at what took you to that place. Yeah, thank you, malcolm, it's really lovely to for a long time, so perhaps we could take a look at what took you to that place.

Micael Johnstone: 1:33

Yeah, thank you, malcolm. It's really lovely to be here with you. I thoroughly enjoyed having you on the podcast and we've met now in person, which was wonderful. Yeah, I'm happy to go wherever you want today.

Malcolm Stern: 1:45

Great. So often. What I'm looking at in relation to this podcast is how it's often adversity that shapes us. It's like we're we're trucking along doing our thing and then something happens and and we take a different turn in our lives. And I wonder if, if there was any particular thing that had sort of sent you in the direction you're going in there, or that it awakens you to effectively, to what, what, what, what is the humanitarian aspect of what you do?

Micael Johnstone: 2:14

um, well, great question. Thank you, I. There's quite a few moments I would say, um, I, I, I think going back to my early years in in the business world and, um, after university I won't walk you through my whole resume, but I worked as an investment advisor at one of the big investment advisory firms in the city, first New York and then London. I just had a profound sense that there was something missing inside these corporate environments and that was humanity. I couldn't quite get my head around the fact that people seem to put on a mask when they walk through those, whether it was revolving doors, automatic doors in big office buildings, and it just didn't sit right with me. So that was kind of lurking there for quite a while.

Micael Johnstone: 3:04

Um, and then there have been a few moments, pretty profound moments along the way that I would say have been yeah, really brought those, brought that home. Um, I was almost most of my career I've been focused on how helping to make businesses quote-unquote better. So how can they be more sustainable? How can we create better cultures? How can we have a positive impact on wider society and the planet? And I always felt that there was a disconnect between the kind of espoused aims and then the lived humanity. So yeah, that's been sort of gnawing at me.

Malcolm Stern: 3:45

What brought about your sort of sense of humanity? Because often people who get really stuck into business from a very early age and clearly you've you've been with some big players in the in the business world uh, what, what's? What sort of turned on your the light effectively for you?

Micael Johnstone: 4:03

I'd say, um, were you born with it? Well, I don't think I was born with it. I don't know, maybe I was. I mean, I was fortunate to grow up in quite a unique community. Actually, my parents have both been practicing transcendental meditation for a long time, and so the sort of wider ethos that goes with that practice is built around connection to the natural world, to, to, yeah, areas that are now, I think, even the sort of left brain credible scientists are getting into, like um consciousness, for example. So this was quite a different um uh upbringing to the mainstream. But then, like most teenagers I suppose, I sort of grew up and wanted to get out in the world and move to London and then New York and got very wrapped up in materialism and consumerism and money and, I suppose, status um and it's funny how it's just sort of stopping every second because I I see this like it's almost like the embarrassment about saying status, but that is big driver for most people who are in that business community.

Micael Johnstone: 5:12

Yeah, yeah, it becomes almost everything right. Your corporate identity or your business identity is you, and I never quite felt that. That was always the case with me. I always wanted me to be. Yeah, I don't know, I wasn't comfortable with just sort of fitting in, so to speak, but I guess, yeah, I played the game as far as it goes and enjoyed the sort of trappings of the travel and money and influence I suppose power, that word.

Malcolm Stern: 5:42

Another word, where there's a sort of full status and power, is almost like they're shameful things in your psyche somewhere they're shameful things in.

Micael Johnstone: 5:55

Well, he's somewhere.

Micael Johnstone: 5:56

Yeah, I, yeah, you're right, I suppose, right now that the, the, the, the men, um, and they are mostly men that are running the world, um, and I don't need to name them necessarily uh, they're, they're, they're, they're very sort of, well, they're the classic sort of alphas, aren't they? And they're all about power, and I, I find that to be sort of profoundly unsettling actually. So, um, that's probably where that comes from, um, but, yeah, there were a few moments along the way where I guess, yeah, I was sort of forced to make a decision between the corporate identity, the role that I'd been or that I'd accepted, and some kind of deeper feelings around OK, is this the right thing to do? Is this the human or genuinely sustainable way forward? And I've sort of those wake-up calls, plus just seeing a lot of people really struggling inside that corporate. I don't want to sort of lazily label everyone as a sort of toxic, toxic organization, but there's a lot of toxicity and I don't think that the environments we've created, certainly in western large organizations, are conducive to human flourishing.

Malcolm Stern: 7:12

Um, yeah, I think what, what impressed me about you, michael, when we met and when we've spoken, is that um is that you are um, unreservedly you, in that environment so that you do bring your your sense of of spirituality, your sense of sustainability of the world into your business dealings.

Malcolm Stern: 7:34

I know, when I was working I still do some bits of work in business and still do some coaching and some group work but in the early days when I was doing it, which is probably going back about 30 years, when you were knee high to a grasshopper probably but I felt like I was in hiding, I felt like I would don the suit and I would present what I felt they wanted me to present and I kept away from my what I would have thought were more ludicrous ideas.

Malcolm Stern: 8:02

So, for example, one of my main tools is psychodrama, which can pass down business as role play, and when I unleashed that, there was often a sort of sense of this is not okay and I felt the sort of like you know that I was actually out of sync with what I was working with. The times have changed, presumably as well, and you're in sync, bringing in probably some tools that are much less obvious to business people than would have been in those days, and I wonder what you're able to do, whether you get any flack for showing up as being you or whatever happens in that direction.

Micael Johnstone: 8:42

Yeah, great question, thank you, I mean. So, yeah, like everyone I guess, I've sort of been on a journey in this sort of testing and experimenting, worked sort of with and inside big corporates for a couple of decades now. And, yeah, the evolution, I mean just from a physical dress perspective, I was wearing the suit and tie and maybe just throwing on a sort of garish pair of socks, um, for quite a while, um, and then increasingly I've just sort of felt like, do you know what I think? Well, covid I think I'm just purely from an aesthetic perspective COVID has, I think, fundamentally changed the way people work and the way people dress actually, um, so there's a sort of more casual approach to dress. But I mean, I, in the last four years in particular, because I left full-time corporate life four years ago and now I'm involved in various different businesses, got the podcast and so on um, yeah, I've been on a real journey in that time to look for new wisdom.

Micael Johnstone: 9:52

And one of the things I love about your book and um subtitle this podcast about the, the with compassion, um element, um guy called gab or mate, who many of your listeners will know, I'm sure you know um, he emphasizes compassion and I guess. Yeah, the other key message that I've learned from him is to just show up and be yourself. Try to hold that slightly more grounded, more relaxed energy and people will gravitate to that. Um, and it seems to work. Um, that sounds a bit grandiose because I get it wrong all the time and I've got a young baby who means I'm tired a lot, but yeah, I think I don't think it is grandiose.

Malcolm Stern: 10:38

I think there's something quite interesting.

Malcolm Stern: 10:39

You just reminded me, actually, when I was doing a piece of corporate work and I'm playing the game and it wasn't working.

Malcolm Stern: 10:47

It felt like it was very dull and I thought I could either keep going and sort of just see it out or I could actually turn myself on to who I am inside.

Malcolm Stern: 10:58

And I did that and suddenly it was like the whole thing was radiant. It actually shifted perspectives and it didn't give me the courage to sort of utterly show up as myself each time, but I do get the sense that you're, that you're acceptable within the business community, so you're getting work, coaching within that world, and somehow that encourages you to up the ante, to really sort of be fully who you are and make changes for people, really sort of be fully who you are and make changes for people. And I think what really interests me, michael, is that when you talk about the men who run the world, that sort of alpha, sort of lack of compassion that's around you didn't use those words, but I certainly would use those words then can you see that that is changing within the business community because you're more feet on the on the ground in that community? Are things shifting? Do you see a possibility that we might actually have a more compassionate world in effect?

Micael Johnstone: 12:07

well, yeah, the world of big businesses is king really. At the moment we have this, this businessman um, whether how successfully is or not a dollar trump in the us um, but it's also very clear that sort of big tech and big finance is dominating things, certainly in the us um. So business is where a lot of power is, and it's why I seek to continue to show up there. Part of me sometimes would like to just leave them all to it and go and spend time with more, more relaxed individuals, um, but the thing that always gives me hope is that actually, when you get underneath the, you get past the sort of the suit of armor or the mask, that there's humanity in everyone that I've come across. Even well, you get the occasion.

Micael Johnstone: 13:00

I think it's fairly well established that corporate leadership does attract a few psychopaths.

Micael Johnstone: 13:06

That's your psychology, your area of expertise, not mine. So there are some people that maybe lack the compassion, but in terms of theory of change, you don't need everybody to change right, you just need enough people, and I've found that, yeah, I've sort of been able to build a tribe of allies, people who see the world in a similar way, people who try to lead with compassion, and, yeah, sometimes I'm guilty of saying, oh, this is all this sort of the old, the old guard and they need to just sort of die off, basically. And then we get the next sort of more compassionate generation, um, and I think there is something in that, but that's not to be critical of of those people because they've come from the environment that they've come from right um, and brought lots of wonderful things built, built the world, um, but, um, there's definitely enough people that that I I think. I think the majority of people would like to live quite a different way in in terms of the world of work, um, so that encourages me.

Malcolm Stern: 14:10

That's great, because I think it does take courage to go into that environment and effectively be more vulnerable, because I think if you're really going to find your essence coming into play in the work, you're going to have to let go of some of the armour or the mask that we spoke about before and actually allow some of your vulnerability to be there. And and and I love my vulnerability, I, I, really I. You know if I'm, if I'm giving a lecture and I'm, I talk about my daughter's death, for example, I will often have tears in my eyes and I won't go. Oh, mustn't show that. Um, and and I wonder if you're able to show your vulnerability within the environments you're working.

Micael Johnstone: 14:53

Yeah, good question. Um, I guess I increasingly so um um vulnerability, both at a, I suppose. Yeah, sometimes sharing, where appropriate, some personal stuff, um how I'm feeling, um letting people know that it's okay not to be sort of on top form all the time and that's not really a natural state of being, but also, I think, increasingly being very aware of what I don't know and that I'm open to being proved wrong every day. Um, and I think corporate world and certainly big consulting sort of we've, we've bought into this idea that we must sort of we're flawed and fallible if we don't have all the answers and we're not on our a game all the time. Um, but that's obviously nonsense. Um, so I think showing up and saying, yeah, I don't know, I know fair bit, but I don't know a lot, that also gives people permission to go.

Malcolm Stern: 16:03

Oh okay, we can be human.

Malcolm Stern: 16:03

Yes, I think that's exactly it.

Malcolm Stern: 16:04

And I remember when I was running a series called Alternatives at St James's Piccadilly in London, which I know you know about as well, and I remember the people who used to turn up, completely assured of who they were and how the world operated and their place in it, and I found them after a while.

Malcolm Stern: 16:20

I found those people boring, but people who are still inquiring and saying there was some sort of question of not knowing and evolving your way of thinking. That's what really fascinated me, and I remember people like Bob Thurman, who's umma thurman's father. It's a shame he gets known as umma thurman's father rather than the most, one of the most profound buddhist teachers I've ever met, um or ramdas, who was a big influence in my life, who came with a lot of vulnerability and not over overdoing the personal stories, but it dropping enough in to show that they'd they'd had to suffer for their art in some ways as well yeah, yeah, um, but that reminds me actually I I had, um a boss at ey um who was on the global executive and had been there a long time.

Micael Johnstone: 17:12

Um, he was very, very good to me actually, but he certainly, like most leaders there, had to sort of wear this suit of armor, this sort of infallible, sort of hard, hard-nosed business character, um, and he once said to me kind of jokingly, but I, yeah, reflecting on it now he said, oh, um, you can be a bit of a know-it-all, michael, because, because I was very passionate and had some very clear ideas that things could be a lot better than they were, um, and spent a lot of time thinking about it and advocating for those positions. And so I I think, yeah, he, yeah, saying hang on a minute, there's wisdom everywhere, and don't feel like you've got it all sorted. And I think the last few years I'm going through some personal challenges, real kind of knowledge-seeking phase. Yeah, I'm much more aware of the fact we have this shared humanity and I know a bit. But everyone else knows something valuable too.

Malcolm Stern: 18:18

So it's interesting, he had the courage and the wisdom to be able to give you feedback, because it felt like when you, when you reflected on it, you didn't reflect this guy going oh Michael, you're a bloody know-it-all. It was almost like he was. He was actually giving you something as a reflection. He was giving you honest feedback, not from a place of judgment, particularly, but observation, nor from a place of undermining or disliking you, but actually sort of like um reflecting for you. And I think that's one of the things we have to learn to do is how to put the title of my book is slay your dragons with compassion to say what needs to be said, and say it compassionately so that we're not just going along with the status quo all the time.

Malcolm Stern: 19:00

So that probably would have had quite an impact on you. He was a boss, he was someone you knew and, by the way, ey you mentioned is Ernst Young. So there is a very well-known law firm Consulting and accounting. Yeah, sorry, consulting um, um, law law firm. I'm consulting in accounting. Yeah, sorry, consulting. I think you see how far out of that they do?

Micael Johnstone: 19:17

do they do law as well? Now they're all these sort of amorphous beasts.

Malcolm Stern: 19:21

Yeah, yes yes, um, but there is something about um speaking, learning to speak our truth. And I think within, within business, I've seen a lot of jockeying for position and holding stances of I know best. That feels like a very old style of leadership to moving towards the sort of more enlightened styles of leadership servant leadership or consensual leadership, which is probably what you're involved with yeah, yeah, that's, that's right.

Micael Johnstone: 19:52

Um, you um mentioned earlier on that. I guess I sort of have an acceptable face for the business world. Um, I, as well, as good I can, I can talk the talk, the language, and I've been there and I'm sort of reassuringly rp, received, pronunciation and whatever else. Um launa davis, who I know is a friend of yours as well, the former CEO of Danone North America, she said to me when I was leaving EY, oh, we need people like you to be bringing this message of more heart-led, more collaborative leadership because, yeah, the world is still run by largely men. Um, so someone who can show up and say do you know what? It's okay to be a bit more vulnerable. It's okay, or more than okay, it's. It's it's more effective to to lead with um compassion and bring, bring all the wisdom around you to the fore and to allow that to flourish. And Lorna talks very eloquently about collaborative leadership and she's someone that's inspired me as well.

Malcolm Stern: 21:00

Yes, and I think that's right. I think there is some. There's something profound about allowing vulnerability to be part of our makeup, not not in a sort of a manipulative way where you'll you'll drop something in order to encourage someone else to do something, but where you're willing to sort of like to take off the armour, knowing that you could actually be penetrated by the arrows coming from the other side if they wanted to. But then if that's the case, you're probably in the wrong environment anyway, if that's what you're having to look out for. So do you look to work? Consult with organisations that out for? So do you look to work, um? Consult with organizations that um, where people are already to some degree waking up or to some degree sort of like broader than than the norm?

Micael Johnstone: 21:44

yes, yeah, um, I mean, I would say it's um. There aren't many big global organizations that have, I suppose, really embedded more compassionate, human-centered, sustainable strategy leadership, but there are pockets inside most organizations of people trying to experiment and do different things, lead differently, run their businesses differently, prioritize differently. Prioritize, yes, money, but also things like purpose and impact, um, and so, yeah, I I think I'm kind of really now at a stage where I'm sort of done knocking on closed doors, um, because people like people aren't ready so there's no point in trying to educate the uneducable.

Micael Johnstone: 22:36

So I think that's that's well, and as you have this, stay.

Malcolm Stern: 22:41

Yeah, as you say, everybody underneath is has humanity in them, but some the chain mail is so thick there's no point in trying to hammer away at it. Yeah, just reminded, as'm just reminded, as you were speaking of a personal development five-day workshop, I ran and one of the guys in the workshop was a CEO of a quite well-known organisation and he, after some days, got into a very vulnerable state where he was crying and I was just really impressed that he was showing up in that way and his wife, who was also in the workshop, said if he did that in the boardroom he'd be dead meat. And I think there is. There was something in those days of of, uh, that you don't do not show your weakness or your vulnerability. Weakness and vulnerability are very different words. I think the vulnerability is actually strength but but that you don't show. What she said was his weakness in that place and I wonder what you think about that.

Micael Johnstone: 23:40

Yeah, I mean. I must admit I have done my best to not focus too much on what's going on with US politics at the moment.

Malcolm Stern: 23:53

Be unavoidable though, isn't it?

Micael Johnstone: 23:55

Yeah, it is, but I guess, yeah. So the reality is we still have, unfortunately, lots of older male leaders who are coming from a place of let's be real trauma, I guess I mean an absence of love somewhere along the line to cause them to behave in this way. But also, yeah, they've been sold the idea that to be a man is to be strong and to man up, I guess. So there's still an awful lot of that about and these guys have taken power at the moment. But, I mean, brené Brown is one of the better known experts in the power of vulnerability and I guess just my lived experience is connections and teams and cohesive organizations um only come together in the longer term when you um treat people like humans and show vulnerability, uh, allow emotions, because it's, it's authentic, it's who we are and I think if, if the, if the armor is thick enough and the, the the defense is thick enough and the defence is thick enough, that person will have a great deal of difficulty being in intimate relationship with others.

Malcolm Stern: 25:18

Because you can't just drop it when you're with your partner. You'll find it's almost like if you're bullying enough in the world, out there in the world, you're probably not going to be able to drop that when you, uh, when you go home as well, and it won't make for very enjoyable or healthy relationships.

Micael Johnstone: 25:40

No, no, I mean I yeah it's probably stepping a little bit sort of over the mark, but I I'm not sure how great donald and his wife's relationship is, but it seems a bit frosty, at least from the outside. We won't go there, but um, I went there sorry, no, no, it's fine.

Malcolm Stern: 25:59

I actually think it's good to flag it and go does. How does that function? Because that's an obvious, it's out there in the world, um, and you know, I've come across a lot of, um, very successful business people who are very unsuccessful in relationships as well, and, and I wonder whether you're able to and this is going into the personal little bit but don't you want to go as well as well how that's how you've impacted in your relationships? Are you able to show up as a vulnerable man within that context?

Micael Johnstone: 26:32

The short answer is to the can I show up as a vulnerable man?

Micael Johnstone: 26:38

is yes, I have been fortunate to have two wives Not at the same time, not at the same time, no, but they both are wonderful people and so, yeah, I think at the fundamental level that has been possible. But it's certainly the case that when two people are busy and in high stress, I guess, yeah, sort of fight or flight type environments more days than not then that creates, yeah, it really compromises, personal relationships, um for sure. Um, I mean, the thing that really drives me, um to do the work I do. I'm going back to our mutual friend lorna davis again.

Micael Johnstone: 27:32

She, her counsel to people inside big organizations and businesses is to go where your heart breaks. And, um, it's funny that even saying that out loud it's going to give me goosebumps. So it shows that it's, it's authentic for me. But my heart breaks when I see the suffering at an individual human level inside those organisations, and I've just seen that across the piece in my close personal relationships. But also, yeah, I don't think many people are currently doing that well, inside the organizations we've created, um, where, fuck, where short-term finances is all um, so, so that breaks my heart and I'm trying to make it, make it better well, you're playing your.

Malcolm Stern: 28:24

You're playing your role in that, and I know that lorna, who you mentioned, is also playing her role, and I think one of the things I've most admired about her is is her capacity to keep her humanity in whatever situation she's in, and um, and I think that that does take some some real doing. But I'd just like to remark on something you said, which was, um, that, um, you've had two wives. That's great, and they're both wonderful people. But very often what we find when our hearts are closed is that a relationship finishes and you trash the other person. That's the way that you deal with the finishing of it, and so I'm uplifted by the fact that you're able to say that they're both wonderful people, because it's all we're struck by.

Micael Johnstone: 29:09

Is it's really odd when we've been really close to another human being and the relationship comes to a finish, whatever the reasonings are, and they become nothing, they become debris from, from our past, and I think that's such a shame that we, we, we lose, that we, we wipe out the beauty of the relationships well, I think, um, in my own experience it's sort of it's a cultural norm, right, and I remember some close friends of mine who felt, yeah, I suppose upset on my behalf when my first marriage ended would be sort of rushing to apportion blame, and I was just kind of that never really sat well with me. I didn't want to rush to sort of jump on that particular bandwagon because I always thought, well, no, there's no positive value there, as much as you might have some sort of resentments, at least in the short term. Yeah, what good is there in in trashing something that has been great for a long time?

Malcolm Stern: 30:19

it's almost like um, reviling love because something will have been, have loved in you and and it doesn't have to turn off because we're no longer in the same sort of relationship. That's the thing I see with relationships is that relationships mutate and change and sometimes that will look like they've finished. But but I think to I, I there's very, very few people women I've been in relationship with, uh where that I've shut them out. You know, that's like. I feel like if we've had that intimacy, then that intimacy needs to be honoured as well. You know, I have a very close and dear relationship with my ex-wife and she's a very good human being and somehow we didn't manage to last the test of time.

Malcolm Stern: 31:07

But I think that we've got this picture that relationships ought to be forever and ever, living happily ever after. And of course that's not the way it works. Works, and with all the pressures of modern life as well. Yeah, in your current relationship you've got a young baby, so that's um, that's going to provide some, some good spice for uh, for the relationship. How are you managing that?

Micael Johnstone: 31:27

if that's not too personal a question no, no, absolutely I, I, um, yeah, well, well, I had about 90 minutes sleep last night and so I was thinking, coming onto this conversation, your podcast, malcolm that I wasn't going to be quite at my best, which was sort of troubling me slightly this morning.

Micael Johnstone: 31:47

But I went for a run, had a cold shower, some of the sort of physical disciplines, I guess, and I'm just about okay to show up today, I hope. But no, it's that wonderful mix of the highs and the lows, right, um, the, the, my, yeah, my youngest son, um, is now 17 months and we're just, he's just developing all the time and I'm lucky enough that I spend one day a week with him. Um, we sort of split the child care in a way that means that we both get some time with with him, um, during the working week and, yeah, he's uh, he's a handful, keeps you awake. But, um, the, the love is deepening all the time and I definitely found that with my 10 year old that just gets stronger and stronger. Yes, there are challenges, but um, no, it's, uh, it's the most wonderful thing yes, I remember this just reminded me.

Malcolm Stern: 32:47

I went to to live in a community, uh, in the 1980s with my then wife and um and our young child, and I blithely said, oh well, you know, we can, we split the childcare because we're living in community, we're doing stuff within the community and um, and so that'd be fair enough. I lasted three weeks and I realized what an enormous job it was. It's, yes, of course it's got its beauties in there as well, but it's really tough work, yeah.

Micael Johnstone: 33:13

I mean, not a lot of dads really share this stuff. I'll be honest about the fact that the first year of both of my son's lives I found really hard. There was some real joy in there, of course, but more lows than highs, I would say. And people aren aren't open and they don't always. Oh, it's so wonderful, it's such a blessing, and which of course it is, but it's really hard and then it keeps, keeps getting better.

Malcolm Stern: 33:43

I I would say and I think, if we deny because I have this thing, that where I I I struggle with, with what's called positive psychology, which is always looking for the, you know, turn it around and make it into something positive I actually think there's some really wonderful growing to be had in the shadows as well.

Micael Johnstone: 34:03

Absolutely yeah, those nights of sort of lying there hoping you could escape to your wife for a glass of wine on the couch and looking at the clock yeah, so we're coming towards the end of our podcast and, by the way your, your 90 minutes does not show up.

Malcolm Stern: 34:22

I've really enjoyed the pad and um and and the sort of the openness that you've you've brought to this as well, michael. So, um, the question I always ask at the end and I wanted to be spontaneous so that it just comes out however it comes out is what's the particular dragon you've had to slay in order to become who you are, ie what's the hurdle you've had to overcome in order to well, um, I mean so.

Micael Johnstone: 34:49

So, yeah, I've mentioned the the profound. Well, yeah, there's no, getting away from a divorce is a profound challenge. Um, we've also talked about the challenges I've faced inside businesses. Um, so, both personal and professional, some pretty big, big life dragons, if you, if you like Definitely not calling my ex-wife a dragon, but I've come to realise that I think for me and this again might sound a bit sort of esoteric, but trying to get over myself and slaying the ego dragon, if you like, has been the most rewarding. Yeah, hopefully people will be less inclined to say that I'm a know it all these days.

Malcolm Stern: 35:39

So definitely I'm. You know. I found, when I did the the podcast with you on on your better, better beings podcast, um, that actually there was a, a gentleness and and a sort of a sensitivity about you that I felt I could drop in to something deeper because you were dropped into something deeper as well. So I think you're doing the work on that, that's for sure.

Micael Johnstone: 36:00

Yeah. And every day, every day, right, every day.

Malcolm Stern: 36:03

Brilliant. Thank you very much for coming on here today and sharing with us, and I've really enjoyed the dialogue we've had and we'll be in touch.

Micael Johnstone: 36:11

Thank you so much, Malcolm Loved.