Malcolm Stern: 0:46

So welcome to my podcast Slay your Dragons with Compassion done in conjunction with my good friends John and Sandra Wilson at Online Events. Very happy to welcome an old friend and colleague today, Jules Wingfield. And Jules used to assist me in groups long, long, long ago before she became a prolific facilitator in her own right and she now runs a project in the in the forest of dean and um has a very rich life story.

Malcolm Stern: 1:15

so jules welcome hey hi, malcolm yeah, I can see you're going to be nervous about where we're going to go with this, but where we're going with this is an exploration, and and I what I've loved doing with these podcasts is is getting into deep dialogue with someone just to see what really makes them tick under the surface. So what's taken you to where you are now?

Jewels Wingfield: 1:38

Wow, that's a massive question. I mean, if I start right back at the beginning, I think my first kind of I suppose I could say awareness of myself, like some sort of perspective on my life, was I would think I was about four or five years old and my circumstances were challenging, shall we say. You know, really really really difficult kind of home environment not really a home environment, only my mother there, and a lot of violence and all kinds of things. And the salvation I felt, the way I would come out of pain, is I would go, there was this road that I would walk down to primary school, to kindergarten, and as I went down this road there was this rosebush that hung over somebody's wall and I would go up to this rosebush and I would just stick my nose in a rose and for the time that I was breathing in and smelling that rose, like all the pain just went away, it just vanished for that moment.

Jewels Wingfield: 2:43

And then, of course, I had to breathe out and it all came back. And then I breathe in again and I just I would stay like immersed in this rosebush and and that was the first kind of clue I had that the way out of my suffering, that nature had something to do with the way out of my suffering and and that really took me on the path to to sort of searching for, searching for my healing, I suppose we could say in the more than human world, human beings seem to just cause me nothing but pain and suffering. There was no real good human beings in my life that I could go oh, human beings are good. I had this uncle in Ireland who was a good uncle and I used to think about him, but I'd only met him a few times. Uncle, and I used to think about him, but I'd only met him a few times, and so I really just continued to look for nature as my solace. You know that that was really the beginning.

Malcolm Stern: 3:37

It's interesting because nature often comes up as one of the key constituents that can help us get beyond ourselves as well, and it's sort of it's subtle, isn't it as well? But I just think, as a four or five year old, to be immersing yourself in a rosebush, you found a resource without even knowing that you were looking for a resource.

Jewels Wingfield: 3:58

Yeah, yeah, basically yeah.

Malcolm Stern: 4:01

And so since then, your life is sort of like has gone in multiple directions. I know that you're a profound facilitator because you trained for the best. So so, yes, profound facilitator because you trained for the best. So, um, so, yes, but no, I do know that you actually and in fact I have come to one of your workshops as well and I do know that you actually have a real capacity for holding a space, and there's something about what, what it takes to build that capacity to hold a space. So can you say a little bit about that? What, what took you in that direction? Yeah, absolutely.

Jewels Wingfield: 4:34

I mean, I've always said, you know, I've done many trainings of different things and, you know, work with you, as we know, and although all of the massive different trainings I did and apprentices I did, they all gave me something along the way, but I honestly believe that my own inner personal journey is the biggest thing I bring to facilitation. You know, I could learn all the theory about therapy, I could learn all the theory about shamanism, I could learn all the theory about tantra and, you know, study, all of those things. But if I've not looked inside, if I've not faced my own demons, if I'm not comfortable with the shadows in me or the fear of somebody else's anger or the fear of someone criticizing me or whatever that might be, is that I can't hold space. Because I believe that we can only hold space as far as we've gone in our own, in our own inner journey. So really honestly, my own and I can see that reflected, like I've been facilitating now for nearly 30 years, and if I look back at the very, very beginning, like the early groups that I ran and the kind of people that would come and what they would bring and how they would bring themselves, is just so I mean planetarily different to what happens now when people arrive in my circles. And I can see that that is a direct parallel journey to the depth and the more I've done on myself and the deeper I've gone into myself and I really believe that that is the best thing we can bring.

Jewels Wingfield: 6:12

That's not to say that trainings aren't important. They are, because there are things that we need to learn about structure and form and being trauma-informed and holding safe spaces and boundaries and all of those things. But when it comes to just sitting with another human being soul to soul, eye to eye and heart to heart, my capacity, you know, if someone's sitting there and they're going to somewhere profoundly dark, like they've really broken down, if I'm in some kind of oh, I'm going to rescue them, oh, I'm going to make it better, oh, no, what if they? You know all of that stuff. I'm not an effective space holder. I you know it's like I'm not coming from a superior place, I'm coming from a place of. I'm willing to get down in the trenches with you and sit here with you and we'll walk together and find our, find the pathway back to something that you feel you can hold and I'll, and I'll hold it with you until you feel you can hold that.

Malcolm Stern: 7:12

That's very good.

Malcolm Stern: 7:12

I noticed that after my daughter took her own life, which you know about, my practice deepened, my personal practice with myself deepened, but also my work changed, like I'd been to the Netherlands behind us lands somehow and been almost like given an extra dimension, which was a direct result of that.

Malcolm Stern: 7:39

And then again, after I had a heart attack in 2021, and again I almost died, I thought I was dying and that moment where I thought I was dying, I hit extraordinary bliss. That actually was an amazing experience to be a human being for this period of time and uh, and so there's something about what takes us on the journey, and I know you've been through quite a lot and I know you've had to really sort of like find your way to being who you are, because it doesn't just come. You're right with, the training starts when we start doing the work. So all the years I did of training to be a psychotherapist didn't really start, so I ran my first group and then I then I realized I was having to learn on the job, and presumably you've learned on the job quite a lot, you, you carry characteristics you've worked with with tantra, with shamanism, um, with women's circles, and and what's taken you what's, what's, what's educated you along the way really honestly other people.

Jewels Wingfield: 8:39

You know, when I'm sitting and holding space, you know, I mean, I've sat in plenty of circles as a participant as well and I still do whether, whichever side I'm on, I feel like I'm still working all the time on my you know what gets reflected back. Just somebody shares something and I'm thinking and I'm sitting there going oh my god, these words could have come out of my mouth. You are literally sitting there going through something that I went through last week or that I'm in right now and I love that. Actually, I really love that because and sometimes someone's sharing something and I'm quietly going hmm, jules, yeah, note to self, pay attention now, because you know this is. It's like, it's almost like seeing myself do a moment of process through somebody else.

Jewels Wingfield: 9:27

And that is just as powerful as me in a circle as a participant, participant doing a piece of work by myself, yeah, and being held in that. So I, I don't see it as sort of oh well, one side is better than the other.

Malcolm Stern: 9:41

I, I learn a lot whichever side I'm on yeah, I think the other thing that educates us enormously and I know this is also true for you uh, our relationships, the the one-to-one interpersonal relationships we have, and, um, and sometimes the suffering we go through in relationships at the time we're going, oh my god, this is unbearable. But actually it's almost like it becomes like a sort of like a cleansing fire as well. So I'm wondering where you've got to in your relationship journey if that's not too personal. Yeah, no, I'm always happy you've got to in your relationship journey.

Jewels Wingfield: 10:10

If that's not too personal, no, I'm always happy to share that. So of course there's the primary mother wound and the primary father wound and you know that twin trail and I spent a lot of years working on the mother wound and I really feel genuinely like I resolved that many years ago and, to be fair to my mum, she came to therapy. I mean, I was just completely blown away and we I really genuinely feel there's nothing in my heart now against her. You know, I really feel genuine gratitude and you know she's still annoying in all the ways she's annoying, but I don't get annoyed by it anymore. You know, it's like she just is who she is. And then of course there's the father and I was like I'm not going there, I'm not going there is. And then of course there's the father and I was like I'm not going there, I'm not going there, I'm not going there, I don't want.

Jewels Wingfield: 10:54

You know just the. You know the anger and the contempt and the rage that I feel about having a absent, violent, you know just bad father. And and it's really only in the last sort of I don't know six or seven years that I've gone. Ok, I got to look at this. You know, after having, you know, four or five significant relationships in my life and being in this pattern of, you know, just blame out, you know, like all the father stuff just wanting to go on them. You know you're not basically on one way or another, you're not here for me and I'm just angry and I'm going to make you wrong for it and hopefully you will just at some point be the dad I never had, you know, and I just go through these cycles and and I had a really profound experience with some plant medicine where I took the plant medicine and I was sitting in the forest and just this word, resentment, got written across the sky and I was like yeah.

Jewels Wingfield: 11:56

And then underneath it said resentment is eating you from the inside out, it is going to kill you. I was like, oh, you know, there was me thinking I was going to have this beautiful time, get shown all these lovely things, and it was right. It was like this, this. It was like resentment was the only thing I had left to give me some sense of power over my father and the anger that I felt, some sense of control or some sense of like. If I give up the resentment, I will be annihilated, I will be killed, he will annihilate me or who you know. The men will annihilate me and I think the biggest journey I've been on aside from the autism journey, which I'll also speak about is actually taking responsibility for that and going. Actually no one's doing anything to me. I am creating my own reality and if I want to really love and be loved, I need to actually just deal with this resentment and stop acting out from that place. And that has changed everything.

Malcolm Stern: 13:00

It's just changed everything it's fantastic because it's often it's it's it's so easy for us to sort of to, to allow ourselves to get drawn into painful situations and not recognize we're just playing out old wounds. But as soon as we take responsibilities which is what I'm hearing you're doing you're, you're becoming more aware and more conscious. I think it's one of the things of aging, actually, that we actually do. One of the side byproducts is that wisdom comes along with aging, if we honor it and we allow it to. And what's your current relationship scenario?

Jewels Wingfield: 13:33

Well, I mean, as soon as I did that, of course, you know, and I was also in this thing of, oh, there's no decent men out there, you know, all of that stuff, and actually of course there was just the law of attraction, the universe.

Jewels Wingfield: 13:48

Then, as soon as I was taking ownership of that and I and I'd softened and I'd taken all the armor off, then relationship just flowed, you know, and the relationship I'm in is just, it's beautiful. It's like there isn't this constant sort of you know, I'm just just accepting of imperfection. You know, relationship is not seeking perfection, it's seeking to accept what is and love anyway, both myself and my partner and let myself really be loved, with all the risks that that involves. It's like, if I really let you love me, well, you're going to abandon me and then there's gonna be loads of pain again and you know, and it's like, well, love anyway, like there's, there's so little time, it's such a short life, like why do I want to waste? You know, I'm still constantly prepping and planning and putting down insurance policies. It's like, no, just dive in, do it and, you know, be in this moment, in this moment. If I can really open, then I'll just be in this moment and I'll catch the next moment if I can. It's kind of like that.

Malcolm Stern: 14:54

So what I'm hearing is you've stopped going to war with the masculine, I've stopped it, which is really, you know, it's something, is it? And it's both a conscious choice and also sort of like a coming of age. Yeah, eventually it's like enough. You know, I don't need to keep doing this again and again. Eventually it's like enough.

Jewels Wingfield: 15:12

You know I don't need to keep doing this again and again. To be honest, malcolm, I was exhausted. I mean I was exhausted, there was something about the menopause. This all happened in the menopause and because I didn't have vitality to carry on in the warrior archetype, I sort of almost like I was forced to find another way because I thought I just haven't got any energy to keep going.

Malcolm Stern: 15:32

That's great and I think you know for a long time, if I you know, if I look at myself and I look at my clients or other people around, there's something about the sort of like the drama of relationships that is so addictive.

Jewels Wingfield: 15:44

That's sort of like the agony and the ecstasy, yeah yeah yeah, I'm hearing more stability and levelness now I was very addicted to sort of serial romance and the drama of slight unavailability and the thrill of the chase and the seduction and the wild abandoned. You know intimacy, and actually although those things are beautiful, when they're driven like a sort of an addiction then it's not integrated and grounded. So I still have the beauty and the magic, but I'm not in that driven cycle.

Jewels Wingfield: 16:21

It's like it's funded and integrated and actually normal. Sweet moments are ecstatic. It doesn't have to be your bells and whistles, it's just the simplicity of this moment and my heart and your heart is enriching my soul in some way.

Malcolm Stern: 16:39

I was doing an inquiry with a friend yesterday and he was quoting Marcus Aurelius, who said that pleasure and pain are both distractions from finding our essence. Whereas pleasure, of course, is pleasurable, but there's still a distraction from actually going deep within. What I'm hearing is that you're not caught in that cycle of pleasure and pain in the same way anymore, which doesn't mean you don't have pleasure like slow down, malcolm but yeah, but you're not caught. You're not caught. You're not a victim. You're not a victim of it, you learn to surf with it.

Jewels Wingfield: 17:12

That's what I'm hearing yeah, yeah, I've got more witness that can kind of catch the one, the rebellious, angry one who wants to sort of fight and survive and all of that, and I'm able to sit more in the vulnerability without the armor and and yeah, that's the game changer really. And not not making someone else responsible for my ability to do that yes, yeah, so you're coming of age, is that's?

Jewels Wingfield: 17:37

that's probably the reality yeah, I mean, I'm going to be 60 this year, as you know, and that's been quite a kind of landmark. And it's only in the last couple of years that I've, um, I've understood about autism. I know it's all the craze at the moment and blah, blah, blah. And I resisted doing any kind of investigating into it because I don't like labels and I don't want to be institutionalized and I don't want to be categorized, but actually it's been, out of all of the spiritual or personal work I have done in my life, understanding my autism has been the most life-changing thing I have ever, ever done.

Jewels Wingfield: 18:15

I mean, I have gone through such massive grief once I understood why I couldn't do this, why that never worked, why I couldn't do it, all of these things suddenly, like my whole being made sense and a lot of the stuff that I used to bring to therapy, because I thought, oh, I just haven't done enough work on myself. If I do enough work on myself, I'll be able to do this thing or say this thing. It's like no, your brain is wired in a particular way. This is not a fuck-up. It's not because you haven't done enough work on yourself. This is like you just are different, you operate differently and understanding that, and then the process of accepting that has just changed my life beyond recognition. It really really has and and and it's just.

Malcolm Stern: 19:06

It's been profound, absolutely profound so, when you look at the and arriving at a very significant milestone at 60 years old, um, what? What do you? What do you hope for in the future? What do you see in the future?

Jewels Wingfield: 19:19

well, that's an interesting question because I think the process that I'm in at the moment, I've come out the other side of menopause and I thought, right, yeah, I'm good, you know, cruise on in.

Jewels Wingfield: 19:28

And now I think last year I started to feel I don't know how to say it like the world, I was pulling away from the world and I was sort of starting to question I've built, you know, the Jules Wingfield, my sort of world of my gift to the world and who I am and everybody knows me and you know that whole persona and the work that I do and it's not that I don't that work that I've done I value and cherish and it's been amazing.

Jewels Wingfield: 19:58

But there's something going on where I'm like who I am is changed, but my brand is sort of still who I was in my 20s, my 30s, my 40s, my 50s, and something inside me has really changed and I realized I need to compost her, not throw away everything I've done. I cherish it. But there's something like who am I now as a woman coming into her 60th year and what does that look like going forward? So I'm definitely not an elder yet, but I'm also not a priestess. I'm not a priestess, I'm not a maiden, I'm not a mother, it's like I'm. I'm in this sort of MAGA phase where I'm between worlds, I'm not yet an elder, but I'm also not what I was, and I'm in this liminal space of really not knowing. So I actually can't ask, answer that question right now. I'm in sort of void of inquiry of how, what is the path I want to do going forwards?

Malcolm Stern: 21:06

and.

Jewels Wingfield: 21:07

I feel a sense of my work and how it wants to change and I feel really excited about that. And I'm having to sort of hold back some wild horses when I go right, right, right, right, let's do it. Let's do it Because it's like no, let the soil kind of just work itself a little bit more, let the roots come down a little bit more, let the wine ferment. Don't be so quick to jump to the next thing. And of course, there's a bit of a panic there because, well, what if I just disappear? What if I suddenly just don't want to run? You know, do my work and I don't think that's going to happen. But I am in a place of trusting and really taking some time out to be in this deep inquiry of how do I birth myself towards being an elder and being a good elder.

Malcolm Stern: 21:52

That's really good, because when I was 60 I gave a talk at Alternatives on becoming an elder. I didn't have a bloody clue. You know, now I'm coming up to 75 and it's like whoa that now I'm sort of seeing something of that, but I still haven't gone through the sort of like. You know some of the terrible initiations that people go through in terms of terrible ill health or degeneration and and bits like that, which all help to mold us as well. Just want to go back a second now to autism, which you've mentioned, because I think it's very important that you've brought it up, because there used to be a lot of shame around it. You're autistic.

Jewels Wingfield: 22:25

Oh, huge yeah.

Malcolm Stern: 22:26

And I'm just wondering whether that's true for you still, or whether you've.

Jewels Wingfield: 22:30

Well, I mean part of the reason why I didn't want to go down the road of investigating, and actually it was a very dear friend that very gently put this little questionnaire in front of me. You know, and I'm very grateful to him In terms of the shame piece, yeah, because I think I had this image that an autistic person is sort of Rain man or someone sitting in a wheelchair in an institution, you know, sort of not capable of communicating with the world and has to be looked after. So there is a huge stigma around autism. Now, adhd not so much. That's almost sort of acceptable in our culture.

Malcolm Stern: 23:08

Yes.

Jewels Wingfield: 23:08

It's sort of this highly functioning autism. And I mean, you know there's degrees of autism, right? You know there's. Obviously there are people who aren't able to function within society's framework. How I see autism now, as I've understood more, is I don't see that there's anything wrong with me. What I see is there's a culture that has created a very limited framework within which how we should behave and socialize and operate one education system that works for one kind of person, and rather than look at how we change culture, we'll pathologize these people and say that they're problematic and that they need to adapt, rather than adapt our culture and embrace diversity, which is exactly what we've done with nature, rather than really celebrate the diversity of nature and say how can we honor at this diversity and live within it? We go well, we don't like certain bits because it doesn't fit in with making us comfortable, so we'll eliminate those and we'll control them it's exactly the same.

Jewels Wingfield: 24:14

so I think for me what I would say there are aspects of my autism which have created huge difficulty in my life, real struggles in my life, which I understand now, but there are aspects of my autism which has made me so good at what I do. Yes, yes, actually my gift and I came in with it like that.

Jewels Wingfield: 24:34

I look back now, like age, I can see, like my incredible I mean very un-English to sort of say brilliant things about yourself, but I can certainly say lots of things that aren't, but this ability that I have to see right into the very soul of someone very quickly and map out what's going on. A big part of that is autism. It's a bit like Rain man he can't do much else but he can play the piano, and it's like there's loads of things I am utterly useless at that, really limit my life in many, many ways. And then I've got these few things like the way I create sacred space, the way I create sacred space, the way I do ritual, the way I can connect in with spirit or the more than human world and and sort of channel wisdom and all of this kind of stuff.

Jewels Wingfield: 25:26

I mean, it's not all autism, but there's a big piece of it in there that is actually because talking to you, I think that I have it because I wouldn't be doing what I'm doing and I can also see the challenges that I've had to go through in life and the you know, the social anxiety is a huge, huge part of it. And I also have something called facial blindness. So I don't have, I can't read, I don't remember faces. So someone comes up to me, I don't know, at a festival and says, oh hi, jules, and I have no idea that we've had four or five conversations in the last week.

Jewels Wingfield: 26:01

And so people go, she's a bit snooty, like she's just doesn't seem that interested in me and it took me years to understand what was going on. I'd just be in this panic like, oh, who's this person? They seem like they know me and I don't. And to, like, the minute someone described that and explained it to me, I just sobbed for about an hour from this sort of oh, it's not that I'm messed up, it's not that I'm an insensitive person that can't even be bothered to remember someone's face. I don't have this wiring, I don't have this memory bank, and now I'm able to just say that to people. Come up to them, I would just say, hey, you need to tell me who you are because I've got facial blindness.

Malcolm Stern: 26:42

That's really powerful, that's a really good resource, that you actually don't have the embarrassment about saying that, and I can hear the way you said it. Now I wouldn't be offended if you said that to me.

Jewels Wingfield: 26:52

No, no why would I.

Malcolm Stern: 26:53

It's interesting that you just said about. I would say it's interesting what you've just said about wiring. I have a woman in one of my ongoing groups who identifies as being very strongly autistic and actually she actually took about half an hour once in one of the groups and described what it was to be autistic and what she said. The thing that really stuck with me was I'm differently wired to most people, and that's what you've just said as well, and I think there's something powerful about that as well it's not about trying to change some belief or some conditioning or some behavior learned.

Jewels Wingfield: 27:32

It's like I literally don't have some wiring. Yeah, yes, yeah, except coming to a place of acceptance has been huge. I wouldn't say I'm all the way there. There's a lot of grief of knowing that there are certain things that I will always find difficult, which will limit possibilities in my life and the kindness towards myself to accept. That is the journey I'm on and I wouldn't stay there. Maybe I'll never be completely there. There's degrees of acceptance in there.

Malcolm Stern: 27:58

Yeah, of course, of course, but that's the whole thing. Is is the journey.

Jewels Wingfield: 28:02

we're never going to arrive, but, but the journey sounds like it is still a rich one if I, if I look at, say, the social, I have huge social anxiety because I it's not that I don't like small talk I actually don't know how to do it. I you know, if someone comes up to me and says, hey, let's talk about our sex lives, it's like I'm right in there. Or let's talk about our sex lives, it's like I'm right in there. Or let's talk about death, I'm right in there straight away. Let's talk about the meat of the pain I feel or you feel.

Jewels Wingfield: 28:26

But if someone says, oh hi, did you go to the shops? I literally don't have the wiring to know how to make bridges into deeper connection. And so, rather than become a hermit in my life, what did I do? I created a world for myself where all my, a lot of my social interactions were happening inside groups, where the rules and the structure and the invitation is to be authentic and deep in relating. So it's like great, I can now create a social life for myself, whether I'm participant, whether I'm leading, because the agreements of how we socialise is one that I feel comfortable and relaxed in.

Malcolm Stern: 29:06

Yes, yes, I really get that, and so, in fact, you've done the ultimate thing, which is the project that you're working on now, and tell us a little bit about that.

Jewels Wingfield: 29:18

So I think I've told you the story before where this all began. So I was at Stonehenge and the Battle of the Beanfields and that whole thing where Margaret Thatcher was trying to eradicate travellers. And I was a traveller and I remember saying then one day I want to get a piece of land where we can sit around the fire, sit in nature and remember why we're really here and our place in nature and what nature has to offer us, why we're really here and our place in nature and what nature has to offer us. And I kind of held that. And of course you know, for many years I had very little overheads because I was living on the land, living as a traveler. One point I bought a house but I kind of didn't live in it and then at some point I had enough money to buy this land and a tumble down old house, and that was 13 years ago. And here I am and it really is just meant to be a place where we can come and remember. And that's the work I've been doing. So all the work happens on the land. Everybody comes, we stay on the land, we tend the fire, we cook on the fire, we sit and look at the stars at night. We kind of ask, just by being in nature. We're asking for that wisdom, for that something that is bigger than the human realm to remind us and help us. Because I don't know about you, but you know, even the best human help in the world and the most amazing person doesn't necessarily reach me. Because I have to feel safe. And somehow in nature I feel safe.

Jewels Wingfield: 30:39

And there was this one first time I really sort of discovered that. I think I was in my teens and I was walking through this forest and I was feeling how I just don't trust humans. They just they're all, they're all untrusting and I and I and I don't feel loved by any of them. I just feel completely rejected and abandoned and all of that. And then I was sort of walking through the forest and I was, and I was sort of looking at the trees and and I and I suddenly had this sense that the trees were sort of looking at me, like they were seeing me. I was like, oh well, this is a bit creepy. Oh, should I be freaked out by this? And and I thought, no, no, let's go with it. And then I sort of opened myself a little bit and I felt this feeling of the trees completely accept me unconditionally. There isn't a filter with trees, they're just here. I'm not good or bad, I'm just here. I'm just another being, another frequency, another bunch of cells.

Jewels Wingfield: 31:35

And then I opened myself to receive this love, and it was so profound. It was the first time in my life that I actually experienced being loved unconditionally, and that was what led me on the path to. And so then I was like so there was a few trees. I thought, god, what if I let the whole forest in? And then I went well, what if I let the sky in? What if I?

Jewels Wingfield: 31:55

And I just kept broadening it out until the end. I just lay on my back on the floor and I was just having this profound experience of unconditional loving acceptance. And then I cry because I thought I'm never going to get this from a human. I'm never going to get this from a human, maybe a bit, maybe to a degree, but not where I feel so safe and so open. And that's really what took me on the journey of animism and and really leaning into nature as the, as the one thing that I can always lean into when humans don't feel accessible to me or I don't safe enough to be able to open to humans and, interestingly so, you've created a project in nature where people come, so actually you invite them into your world yes, yes, exactly to open the possibility.

Jewels Wingfield: 32:44

Have you considered that nature might have something to offer?

Malcolm Stern: 32:48

yes, that's lovely. So we're coming towards the end of our podcast. The question I'm always asking people when we're when we're doing this is what's the particular dragon you've had to slay in order to become who you are? What's the hurdle you've had to overcome? What have you, what do you have to take on in order to to be jewels now?

Jewels Wingfield: 33:10

I, I've had to take off my armor.

Jewels Wingfield: 33:12

You know, I really would say it like that because because of the imprint I had from my younger years, there was a lot of violence, a lot.

Jewels Wingfield: 33:20

It was a lot of violence, a lot of attack, a lot of, you know, just all of that kind of stuff the way I I mean my father, was very powerful destructive man, and so was my brother, and I saw them destroy people around them, like literally, my mom ended up trying to commit suicide many times, ended up in a psychiatric unit, same with my brother, all of that, and I saw people around them just crumble and I can remember, even at like age six, going you're not having me, you are not going to take my soul, you're not going to do to me what you've done to them. But in order to do that, I had to put on this armor so that they couldn't get in. But of course, what happened is I was just permanently in the armor rather than oh well, I'll take it off this evening because I'm with someone and then I'll put it back on if I need to. It was just glued on and the feeling of taking off that armor was well, if I do, they will annihilate me.

Jewels Wingfield: 34:17

I will be destroyed, I will end up in a in a psychiatric unit and I will end up dead, literally. That you know me. I will be destroyed, I will end up in a psychiatric unit and I will end up dead, literally. And then I could tap into past life stuff around that as well, repeated patterns of all of that and, honestly, honestly, taking off that armor and being vulnerable, being in my feminine, being soft, being willing to be vulnerable, has been the biggest thing that has changed me and I've seen directly how that's deepened my friendships, my connections, my work.

Malcolm Stern: 34:46

It's just rippled into everything well, if you've um I mean, I often talk about um armor in groups that actually we've learned how to put on our armor because we've had to at a very young age in order to survive, and that certainly sounds like what you had to do in order to survive, um, but but then we've we've lost the capacity to take it off. Now it's not about throwing it away and being totally disarmored. It's about choosing where you can be, and, of course, you're wearing armor. Intimate relationships are pretty crap, aren't they? Yeah?

Jewels Wingfield: 35:21

yeah, yeah, it's like come with your hacksaw and try and get exactly not letting you in mate yeah, yeah, so that I think, and and also you know, understanding my autism, that has changed so much in me. Those two things I would say are the most profound. Well, and three, the nature, those, yeah those are good.

Malcolm Stern: 35:41

That's a good template. Thank you so much, Jules, for being with us today.

Jewels Wingfield: 35:46

It's lovely to see you again after so many years.

Malcolm Stern: 35:49

Exactly yes, A long time.