Speaker 1: 0:46

Hi, I'm Malcolm Stern and, in conjunction with my friends John and Sandra Wilson from Online Events, we're creating a series of podcasts called Slay your Dragons with Compassion. My book of the same name was conceived and inspired by the suicide of my daughter, Melissa, and the journey that took me on and the internal resources that I found. All of my guests will have a story to tell around overcoming and ultimately thriving through adversity. Special thanks to the band Stairway, Jim McCarty and Louis Chinamo for the use of theme music from their album Medicine Dance, and my engineer, Owen Santiago. I hope you enjoy this series and thanks for listening.

Speaker 2: 1:32

Well, welcome everybody to the Slay your Dragons podcast. I guess we've switched seats. I'm getting to interview you, Malcolm. Usually you're doing the interviewing and here we are for about 25 minutes to kind of take a pause and reflect on how the podcast is going, what's kind of been happening with the episodes. We're very pleased to be part of or joining in with podcast thon and um. I guess there's podcasts going on all over the world today and we wanted to join in with that too and we thought this is an excellent moment to kind of think about how's the podcast going? What, like how's it impacted you, Malcolm? What have you learned from all these profound conversations that you've been having?

Speaker 1: 2:22

That's great, john, because we often don't get to reflect on what we're doing. We sort of get the inspiration and then we do it. But, um, um, I think there's been some for me that there's been a really heart-opening space to deeply connect with another. Um, looking at the, the question of slay your dragons with compassion, how people have thrived through adversity and that's the theme of the podcast and, and I've been extraordinarily touched now I'm thinking about it by the generosity of people sharing um their their deepest thoughts. So we've had people like joe berry, who's the daughter of sir anthony berry, the tory mp killed in the brighton bomb blast, who's going out lecturing with his murderer, pat mcgee, on forgiveness and um, we've had a former bank robber and armed robber and meth addict who is now a mentor and coach.

Speaker 1: 3:18

We've had a paralysed international cricketer who's working with the fact that he's now paralysed. So I think what we can see is that when adversity strikes us and what I'm seeing is that when adversity strikes us, we have to dig deep for resources, and I think that's what I've been touched by is people digging deep for resources and coming up with the fact that they've grown through, they've been moulded through their adversity.

Speaker 2: 3:45

Thank you, malcolm. Thank you, and I'm just pausing for a moment because I noticed when you move, there's a light behind your head that gives you a wonderful halo effect. It's gorgeous, but maybe we.

Speaker 1: 3:58

Yes, let's just shift this over a little bit. There we go. I've got the window there as well. Okay, is that better?

Speaker 2: 4:09

Maybe where you were is fine, but we'll just kind of keep your like, keep the light right behind you. Let's try that, because I think that was a um, yeah, uh, I think if you go back that little bit, that you wear um, just let's get the light out of the. Oh well, that works perfectly. That works perfectly, yeah that's good.

Speaker 1: 4:31

So we'll edit that lot out absolutely.

Speaker 2: 4:33

I'll say to erwin, and so, malcolm, as you think about those podcasts, what is it that you hope the listener gets from these conversations?

Speaker 1: 4:46

I. I want people to be inspired. I've been inspired by people's stories. That's the work that I do right now.

Speaker 1: 4:54

I'm speaking to you from the Compassion and Mental Health Gathering in Wales and I run a workshop there called Telling Our Stories, and people's survival through suicide attempts, through great adversity, is really inspiring. It's inspiring that they've come through and they've found a route and they've also inspired others, and I think what I love with the podcasts is that it offers a place of inspiration. And also working with you and your team at online events Online events is an amazing innovation that it's set up for to work with therapists and counselors and mentors and um. We are co-inspiring each other there. So I think what I see really these days is that we are creating um. What I think of as sanghas, which is sangha is, is a um, the buddhist term for communion with others of like mind and I think that's what I'm hoping for is that that people sort of feel like they've got a brother, sisterhood, and that that's part of the deal. That's there as well. They've got somewhere they can hook into, where they'll find some sanity yeah, and I Like.

Speaker 2: 6:10

inspiration is a wonderful thing and I know that that's definitely what I look for in terms of the content I'm accessing on your podcast and other podcasts that I enjoy and what's after inspiration I to reflect on what we're doing.

Speaker 1: 6:40

And what is After Inspiration? Well, after Inspiration is practice, and I think it's actually nailing the very things that we need to do to up our game or to find ways to thrive. To up our game or to find ways to thrive. And I think what's next, then, is how do we then? Well, if we're looking at sangha, if we're looking at the concept of communion with others of like mind, how do we create our personal sanghas?

Speaker 1: 7:03

My friendships are sanghas. My relationship with online events is a sangha. The groups that I run are sanghas. They are places of inspiration. So, once you've got that, you've got to practice, then, making sure that we've got people in our lives who can support us on this very weird journey we're on on planet earth. I mean, we are in such strange times and I think my, my hope is that we provide some stability and a bullock against, uh, the the, the madness that's going on around us, and find ways to actually thrive as human beings and to make this our personal, one wild and precious life, meaningful. So my hope is that we're providing some tools, some insight into meaningfulness.

Speaker 2: 7:51

Yeah, and listening to the podcast could be part of our practice, like the like, having that in our routine somewhere and getting that inspiration and having it inform our practice is that. Would you say that, malcolm?

Speaker 1: 8:09

absolutely. I think we, you know, we need to find places where we can go. Ah, that's my truth, that's my truth being spoken there. I can resonate with what's being said there, and I think when people have come through enormous adversity, they also bring with them wisdom, and they bring with them sort of something that they can share and pass on, and that's the thing is. We pay it forwards, we pass it on to to those around us, um, because we all need inspiring. You know, it's like I'm, I find the various things I'm involved with, um, the work is, is inspiring, and so, um, I feel like I'm, I'm, I'm of some use on on this, uh, on this planet, and and I think that my hope is that people will actually see that they have a unique destiny and that perhaps the podcast is a small step towards shining a light on what might be possible.

Speaker 2: 9:05

Yeah, that's a wonderful purpose to have in the podcast. And if I get a bit personal for a moment, malcolm, yeah, of course. Yes like how would you say the podcast has impacted your practice?

Speaker 1: 9:22

and that's great. I love questions that challenge me and force me to sort of like go, look, look more deeply. So the podcast was born from the death of my daughter, melissa, by suicide, and it wasn't directly born from that, but it's. It's now sort of come into that.

Speaker 1: 9:38

I wrote a book called slay your dragons with compassion, which was basically how I managed to not just survive but to thrive, through one of the greatest strategies that can befall us as human beings and um, and so the podcast has really sort of um impacted on me in a way that I'm I'm renewing and refreshing my sense of inspiration. So when I have a dialogue with um, with some of my guests, or with you, um, that there's a sort of sense of, of meaning that's coming from our dialogue, and so for me, that's, that's a practice. It's like I can think of it as a, as a meditation practice. Every time I do a podcast, it's it's a willingness to engage with another in in a deep way. Uh, that draws out of me as well as out of them. I have to find something in me in order to find something in in my guest as well yes, yeah.

Speaker 2: 10:41

Could you give us an example of that, malcolm, do you like?

Speaker 1: 10:45

as you think about all those episodes that you've recorded already, and there's been really a number of episodes yeah, we've done more than 50 now, which is really a good achievement yes, it really is like a moment where, as you say, you've kind of had to dig deep in yourself and then to make that connection to the other person yes, I think when I think about the podcast I did with Joe Berry, who's Sir Anthony Berry's daughter, I had to find the place in me that was willing to take a look at the depth of her transformation through her painful experience and to travel with her in that place.

Speaker 1: 11:32

So, um bit by bit, it stopped being me being an interviewer and her being an interviewee and, and we were actually dialoguing about life and about um and and what are the um? What's the meaning of taking a tragedy and turning it around? And so then it forces me to look at how I've taken a tragedy and turned it around, and I think that's one of the reasons I love running therapy groups is that I watch people again and again doing that, and I think it's one of the great reasons behind the podcast that I watch people digging deep and I travel with them. So I have to dig deep as well, and so that's a joy for me. That's a real place of gratitude for the capacity to deeply engage with another and, in the process, deeply engage with myself.

Speaker 2: 12:28

Yes, yes, thank you, malcolm, and I mean we're both therapists. We were very experienced at watching others, and not for a voyeuristic intention, but to really accompany the people that we work with and that we share those journeys with, and to be there. And I noticed you talking about that, like that experience as you interview people and yeah, and I really recognise that in the work that I do as well, and just I wonder if there's been a moment on the podcast when you've come to an end and you've finished and it's really helped you in your life, because we're so good at helping other people and I think that's what brings us to this work, isn't it? But something that has really kind of fed you, touched you.

Speaker 1: 13:30

Yes, I think there's been a couple of podcasts where, um, I've had the uh, the privilege of interviewing people who have come a long way and and it's easy as a therapist to sit in the place of, of knowing. I don't want to do that, I know you don't want to do that either. There is the place of relationship. But I think, um, particularly the podcast I did with amy fox, who's the, who's a big, big time ceo in the in the states, um it in the dialogue I felt like I was being educated by her life experience and it was, it was bouncing into my life experience. So I think, um, I think the beauty is with the podcast is that we are looking at peer engagement and, of course, we can be educated by the depth that we can go to with another. And I think a few times in the podcast I've been really touched by the wisdom that's come through and been spoken and also the fantastic life experience.

Speaker 1: 14:35

Um, you know I talked to um, one of the people I did a podcast with was jim mccarty, who's the, the founder member of the yardbirds, who played with jeff beck, eric uh, jess, jeff beck, jimmy page and eric clapton, and is still playing with the yardbirds at 80. He's at 80 years old and and, uh, just hearing the joy he has in actually he found his purpose very early in life and and and the joy he has in performing, in getting out there and doing his, uh, his thing. So, um, I think joy is infectious as well. I think that when we sort of that that's another of the things when I'm talking to someone and I feel that they really are following their inspiration, they're following their trail, it helps me get in touch with the part of me that's following my trail, because I think, equally, despair can be infectious as well.

Speaker 2: 15:28

Yes, and we need joy at this time, don't we?

Speaker 1: 15:32

We're in such difficult times yes, I mean one of the things I was looking. I was just running a group this morning and one of the things I was looking at in the group was was the um. It's impossible to be a human being in this world and not suffer, because our very sensitivity puts us in touch with the suffering of the world. Now, if it's just the suffering, it can feel like a total overwhelm, but in the midst of suffering is also joy. So one of the pieces of work I was doing was with this guy who's been through a really deep, deep experience and um, and suddenly there came a moment of laughter. It's I don't know where it comes from, but it came a moment of love and the whole group laughed, released the tension and there was joy with the suffering. And I think that is the learning that these two things belong together as well. There is no joy without suffering, there is no suffering without joy, and we've got to hang on to that place that can allow us to be uplifted by our lives.

Speaker 2: 16:35

Thank you, malcolm. Yes, that place that can allow us to to be uplifted by our lives. Thank you, malcolm. Yes, I just want to make another pause because I feel like we could easily wrap up here.

Speaker 1: 16:43

I'd like um, but I just want to check if there's any other things that you might want to touch on, malcolm, or I think, um, one of the things that I want to touch on is is that at this stage in my life I'm now in my mid-70s um, at this stage in my life, I'm not. I'm not thinking about all the work I do as what money can it produce me? And I think I was caught in the on a treadmill in my younger days that it was always about earning money, and now what I see is that when we do things that float our boats, that's the reward. The reward isn't necessarily a monetary one, and I think with the podcast, it's almost crept up on me that this is a place of enjoyment, this is a place of inspiration, it's a place of relationship and connection and of deepening friendships as well. So, yeah, I think I really want to reflect on that, that this is, this is an opportunity for me to to find the best part of me and to do that on a regular basis and to build relationships with people.

Speaker 1: 17:56

So some of the people I've interviewed have been long-term friends and I feel like our friendship has deepened through doing the podcast, through asking each other, searching questions, and I'm reminded of William Blake's statement that the challenge compassionately given is the mark of true friendship, and I think what happens in the podcast is a challenge both ways. And I think what happens when we're looking at good therapy, I think we see it as a challenge as well, and it's really interesting to look at good therapy. And I know that, john, I know you're a good therapist and I know I'm a good therapist as well.

Speaker 2: 18:39

So, yeah, Thank you, Mark. We are doing our best in how we accompany people, for sure.

Speaker 1: 18:46

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 18:47

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 18:48

And what's in it is not just this, is not just a career. This is a calling, and I think that's really important as well, that there's a calling, that where we are invited to bring our deepest selves to the dialogue. Be it podcast, be it therapy, be it whatever it is, it's an opportunity to stretch out from that place.

Speaker 2: 19:09

Yeah, and I think the conversations that you have with people, malcolm, invite us, as listeners, to find that in ourselves and to bring that into our lives too, and and this is what changes the world that we find on the days that we can and the moments that we can, that we find our best selves and bring that to someone that we're, that we're in proximity to, that we're in connection to exactly, yes, yes, so, um, and I just want to sort of say how grateful I am to to online events, because you've sponsored the podcast, you've sort of believed in them before, before we'd even hatched them, so, um, so I feel like that's.

Speaker 1: 19:50

There's a sort of a sort of sense of of good symbiosis, there's a good sense of traveling together and creating something that has meaning.

Speaker 2: 19:59

Well, it feels like a real privilege to Sandra and I to have you doing the podcast with us, malcolm. It feels like a really wonderful relationship. Part of the sangha is you saying that we're in and part of that purpose that we share of bringing joy and bringing away through suffering. That is a part of the human experience. So, yeah, thank you for the trust that comes in that to malcolm and and looking forward to too many, many more. I also want to say thank you to erwin, who also works very closely with you in terms of the recording and the production, and all the the guests that you've had. Malcolm, it's been a wonderful journey so far lovely.

Speaker 1: 20:41

Yeah, thank you very much, john, and um, yeah, may we thrive and and go forwards with joy as well absolutely maybe.

Speaker 2: 20:49

a final thank you to the podcast team for kind of encouraging us to have this extra episode, to take a little bit of time to reflect, pause and reflect, see where we are and look forward to the future. So thank you, malcolm, thank you for everybody that's been listening.

Speaker 1: 21:07

We'll be back again soon. Yes.