Malcolm Stern: 0:46

So Welcome to Slay your Dragons with Compassion, a podcast which I've been doing with my friends, john and Sandra Wilson, at online events, and this is a podcast entitled Slay your Dragons with Compassion, because it's about people thriving through adversity and having to find ways of overcoming difficulties in themselves. Today's guest is Russell Byrne, who has been intensively involved with the prison system, with working with prisoners as a counsellor and therapist, and is currently working a lot with alcohol and drug abuse, and so this is quite a sort of like a going in at the sort of like the sort of the deep end of society where there's a lot of pain and probably a lot of ignorance, a lot of sadness. That's there as well. So, russell, what drew you into that world?

Russell Byrne: 1:34

I think, with the prison service I got to a point in my life while I was in the UK that I wanted a complete change of direction. I'd worked as an actor for a while and then worked in a gym, that kind of thing, and I just wanted to do something more meaningful. And through various different circumstances, I got introduced to the prison system. I went for an interview and I got a job. So I was primarily working with men who had either were addicts or who were violent running group with them and I found it incredibly challenging but incredibly rewarding.

Russell Byrne: 2:12

And with drug and alcohol I worked in the jail in the UK for about one year. Then I immigrated here to Australia where I worked in the prison system for about seven years and currently I work in a drug and alcohol rehab. I think with drug and alcohol I really resonate with my own history of the drink problem, which I developed sort of around about 14, I started drinking and drank for many, many years and gave up about 15 years ago. So I have a real kind of empathy, if you like, and a resonance with people who struggle with addictive behaviour and addictive substances.

Malcolm Stern: 2:50

So what drew you into alcohol and how were you able to overcome that that aspect of yourself as well?

Russell Byrne: 2:58

Well, I can remember the very first day that I had a drink as a child. I was very incredibly shy, didn't have any friends Quite a classic story, really, of being bullied a lot. I had a terrible stutter so I couldn't talk, I couldn't communicate any friends Quite a classic story, really, of being bullied a lot. I had a terrible stutter so I couldn't talk, I couldn't communicate very well. So I felt very isolated. And I can remember going to a party when I was 14. And I had a drink and it changed everything for me. I suddenly felt I could be who I wanted to be. I felt secure. I felt funny. For the first time People really warmed to my humour. So I kind of learned at the age of 14, if I had a drink and I got drunk.

Russell Byrne: 3:38

I could be accepted. That's what kind of got me into it.

Malcolm Stern: 3:41

That's probably pretty common, isn't it as well that actually you overcome your inhibitions, you overcome your sort of sense of alienation, that's right. You sort of groove along with people that you're drinking with. It's not very probably. Initially it was very satisfying, but somewhere along the way this is going to be a story that's typical for people who've been alcoholics. Somewhere along the way it stopped being satisfying, presumably.

Russell Byrne: 4:12

I mean it was fun. I'm not going to lie and say it wasn't fun for a very long time. And then suddenly I started having many more arguments, a lot of anger would come up and it really started to affect my, my personal relationships, first of all with my wife and then with my my partner now and I got to the point where I realized that if I did, if I didn't do something that I would be, I would be left the the relationship couldn't survive it. I just felt that and, um, I think I tried for many years to stop and I just couldn't do it. And then I went to an AA meeting and I had to. I can only describe it as an epiphany. I felt my life had come to a point where I was just so ready to stop, but I had a real emotional kind of catharsis at this meeting. I didn't go to many meetings and from that moment on.

Russell Byrne: 5:06

I never drank again and I can't. It's hard to explain what actually happened. I just I can just remember being very, very open emotionally and I just lost the desire. It was an extraordinary experience actually so it was.

Malcolm Stern: 5:20

It was a moment, a moment of epiphany that actually came upon you in the meeting, presumably hearing other people's stories and, yeah, daring to speak your own.

Russell Byrne: 5:30

That's right um, yeah, it took I'd say it took years and years to get to that moment. When that moment came, it was. It was almost effortless. Um, I suddenly saw all the repercussions of all the to, all the damage I'd caused and all the damage I could cause if I continued. It was a wonderful experience and I got a sponsor, did all the stuff you know all that kind of thing.

Malcolm Stern: 5:58

But yeah, and often, when overcoming a sort of an addiction, an addictive behaviour of some kind, we migrate from one addiction to another. Did you do that?

Russell Byrne: 6:11

For me it was always alcohol, really um bit of cannabis. Um, I used to be, I used to get very um, I used to look outside of myself a lot for validation. So a lot of sort of relationships I look for to look to be seen, to try and be seen as attractive to to be, to be noticed, to try and be seen as attractive to be, to be noticed, to be valued, that kind of thing. So that led me into a lot of difficult relationships early on, um, and I realized it was really at the root, the same, the same route as the alcohol. Um, it's a constant thing. I think it's a constant battle for me to continue to try and really validate myself and see the value of who I am because of anything external. It's an ongoing thing but it's a lot easier now than it used to be and I think that's true for a lot of us as well.

Malcolm Stern: 6:59

Presumably you've had some support along the way you talked about a sponsor in in a so, which is a really good support system and presumably your relationships change, because when you're, when we're, when we're working within an addictive environment, when we are addictive, we tend to hang out with fellow addicts, don't we?

Russell Byrne: 7:20

everybody I knew drank, everybody got drunk. Every time it was. It was like when my wife didn't drink as much, everything we, whenever we ever went out together, I'd always end up drunk, coming home drunk in the end. It caused a lot of heartache, a lot of pain for her so, but she also drank not like me.

Russell Byrne: 7:41

I mean, for me it was like I had to have it or else kind of thing. But she, she would, she would drink too, but it wasn't like. It wasn't like me. Certainly. We couldn't have any wine in the house in the end, because I just drink it all so what did your day look like?

Malcolm Stern: 7:53

so you'd wake up and have a drink, or you'd wake up and have breakfast and then have a drink, or or you'd wait.

Russell Byrne: 7:58

It was mainly evening. I never drank in the morning or anything like that, but my whole day I was always aware that when I got home from work it would be the time to kind of have a drink. So I always had a drink as soon as I got home and then the evening kind of disintegrate from then on. Yes, and I thought I was being very funny, very intimate all of that, but it wasn't in fact, it was an illusion. You know, for me it wasn't what I wanted yeah.

Malcolm Stern: 8:24

So, um, once you were drinking, presumably you'd you'd shared some of your, your inhibitions. You'd show up as a? Um sort of, as you said, humorous and what you thought was intimate in relationship. But in fact you're touching the surface. So how did that affect your marriage? Did it fall apart, or was there an ultimatum? What happened to, to break your marriage down?

Russell Byrne: 8:51

well, we've been together, for I met, I met my wife when I was 18. She was quite older than I was and so we got together. We were together for 12 years. Um, I wouldn't say it was the alcohol that that did it.

Russell Byrne: 9:04

I kind of met buddhism at drama school and, through through a series of meditations, I kind of came to the realization that I've been, I was gay and I had to. I had to leave the marriage, um, which was incredibly difficult because I really loved my wife and still do. Um, we were very close. I just had, I just felt I just had to have integrity and not I didn't want to lead a lead a double life, if you like, because I knew people that did that and it just didn't. It didn't, um, it didn't resonate with me. So I, I had that, you know, the terrible experience of having to tell her that I, I was, I was really confused and I really felt I had to leave, and it was. It was probably the hardest thing I've ever been through in my life to see someone that you love so devastated by what you've done, by what you've said. It's incredibly hard.

Malcolm Stern: 9:56

And were you already acting out at that stage, or you were sort of like you knew it in the back of your mind?

Russell Byrne: 10:02

A little bit. I mean to be honest, looking very far back, when I was about 10 or something, I had some kind of with my cousin.

Malcolm Stern: 10:08

We did some kind of experiment as, I think, a lot of young kids do.

Russell Byrne: 10:13

I just remember him not wanting to continue, and I really wanted to continue. So I was quite aware there was something deeper for me happening than it was for him. And then, while I was married, I think there were a couple of experiences drunken experiences with men at work, that kind of thing. But then I met somebody, um, while I was on a training course. I knew I knew then that I had to leave. It was very clear because I'd suppressed it, because I was grew up in a very small town. It wasn't like London, it was very small, where you know, gay pubs were still blacked out windows, that kind of thing. So it was really taboo and really looked down upon. So I had a lot of shame around it.

Malcolm Stern: 10:52

And of course it was illegal up until, I think, the 1980s.

Russell Byrne: 10:59

Yeah, I was only probably 20 then I was married, but I didn't do anything then.

Malcolm Stern: 11:12

I mean, this is a long time later probably. I think I was 30s in my 30s when I came out, when I left um and had your wife suspected that you were gay.

Russell Byrne: 11:16

She said not, I did ask her about it, but she was. She was so kind of um, what really hurt, I think, was her. It made her question her identity as a woman and that really hurt me. And when I left, she said if you leave, I'll kill myself. And it was a very difficult choice to make to walk away from a relationship where she was threatening that. And when I did leave, she did try and kill herself. Um, luckily, you know, she's absolutely fine now. She survived and everything. And the beautiful thing is we're both incredibly good friends. She came to my wedding with my husband. She's very supportive, um, she loves me still. We talk all the time. It's a beautiful.

Malcolm Stern: 11:58

It could have been such a terrible ending, but it was a beautiful beginning of something very new in our relationship so often in the sort of the breakdown of something, there's a sort of sense that you know life has gone to hell, but actually something about the recovery process that feels very sort of profound as well, that actually you managed to sustain a friendship, um, that you would have liked to, to really dare to live your truth and to to actually do this. I want to presume you've been with your husband a fair period of time yeah, I think um 23 years and so how is that your relationship now?

Malcolm Stern: 12:39

it's wonderful, I mean it's like yesterday.

Russell Byrne: 12:43

I mean, I've always been very lucky with relationships. I've only had three main relationships in my life with my wife, then a first boyfriend for six years who then decided he wanted to be straight, so he left. We left each other and he went and all that, which is fine, and then my partner now. So it's been.

Malcolm Stern: 13:00

It's been three wonderful relationships and very proud, I'm very proud of them, but we've been able to maintain friendships yes, and when you were working in prisons there's often people in in those environments have very good radars as well well, were you ever sort of challenged about your sexuality in that environment?

Russell Byrne: 13:21

I was never challenged about ever.

Malcolm Stern: 13:23

I'm quite surprised, to be honest yes, yes, so am I I genuinely.

Russell Byrne: 13:28

I mean what they I know they probably talked about me behind my back.

Russell Byrne: 13:32

Yeah, I'm pretty sure they did, made you fun and everything there was one occasion I remember doing a group and they I kind of encouraged disclosure and self-disclosure as well. So I was being quite honest, I wouldn't do that again in a jail environment because they were quite salaciously interested, if you want, in the finer details of that and I think it was a mistake to do that. But apart from that one time never to my face I really believe that they knew that I cared about them. They could sense it.

Malcolm Stern: 14:05

It wasn't sorry, go on, um sorry no, that's really interesting actually, because actually there's something about that. The healing in these environments often comes. I'm not just talking about prisons. I'm talking about in difficult environments where, where people have had their liberty taken away in some degree, they're often, through acts of small acts of kindness, become a very large currency in those environments and it feels like genuine kindness coming from you. You weren't doing a job and earning your daily bread in that way. You were bringing your skill and your beingness to that environment.

Russell Byrne: 14:41

I just decided I was going to accept them and not need them to be different, to love them, if that makes sense. And there was a lot of love expressed in those groups, love for me, love for each other it was. It was beautiful experience working with men for me is a is a incredible honor in that way. Working in that way, I love it, yeah I've often looked at.

Malcolm Stern: 15:03

You know, when I talk about the sort of the therapeutic process with people, I've often looked at you know, when I talk about the sort of the therapeutic process with people, I've often looked at that actually, the key ingredient of a good therapist is the ability to love. That if you can truly get your judgments of others, you're going to be, you're going to be able to go much deeper because they're going to know and they're going to trust you yeah, I agree, I agree. I'm not sure where that came from.

Russell Byrne: 15:25

I'm not sure about you.

Malcolm Stern: 15:26

Russell. Thank you, I'm ready. From this dialogue I'm sort of seeing I would trust you. I think you're a straight shooter from what I can see.

Russell Byrne: 15:39

I often wonder where I developed that ability to care like that. It's a gift, I, I feel, and I'm very lucky to have it. I haven't sort of worked on it, it's just a natural thing that I've had since I was very young, actually, whether that may have been a result of my upbringing.

Russell Byrne: 15:57

My upbringing was quite difficult. My father was very opposite to this and he was very emotionally, um, closed off, angry man, a violent man, that kind of thing. So you know, irish, all that. So it was. I seem to have. I seem to have developed completely the other side of it because of I don't know whether it's related to that, but my sister I have a twin sister. She's also incredibly kind, um, and deeply caring of others. So I'm I guess it's something to do with our upbringing but we went the. We went the opposite direction to how we were taught, if you like, and I'm very grateful in that way for for my upbringing, that it's created this inside both of us well, we often go one of two ways from a from a for us.

Malcolm Stern: 16:46

Well, we often go one of two ways from a from a difficult childhood and we'll either become like the parents and and then act out and pretty much repeating a lot of their moves, or we'll we'll be in rebellion against that. So I often thought my son, who's a very straight shooter and sort of you know, sort of very straight down the line, was rebelling against what he saw as as a hippie upbringing and he's he's had no time for that sort of stuff. But I think often we we pull against that. What we've given been given as the norm. We've been challenging it and I think the more difficult the upbringing, the more the capacity is for actually finding something different, because you're able to look at it and go this isn't right somewhere in you. You'd have known.

Russell Byrne: 17:26

This isn't how I want to behave that's exactly what I think, what it is, yeah so what led you into?

Malcolm Stern: 17:36

even with even okay, god, I'm gonna say what? What led you into no, no, it's just terrible.

Russell Byrne: 17:46

It's a good question. I came very late to it. Acting was always something that I thought this is what I want to do with my life and I pursued it, despite and it was so difficult and I kept on going to overcome the stutter, to overcome the incredible shyness and yet be pushing myself toward a job that was so much. Everything that that that I wasn't in a way um, it was. I really believe in that. I really think challenging myself is how I, how I want to live my life. So when things are very difficult, if I believe in them, I'll push forward. But it's taken. It was.

Russell Byrne: 18:25

The acting journey was very hard and I just all I wanted was to. If I can get, I thought to myself if I can ever join the Royal Shakespeare Company. That, to me, was the epitome of well, you've made it. You know all that. And I finally did get into the Royal Shakespeare Company when I was about 40 or something, and once I'd done that job, I decided I never wanted to act again. I literally decided to do it. Yes, but it was just. It wasn't all that I dreamt it to be, because I'd had this dream since I was about you know very, very little, and it kind of got out of my system in a strange way, and then I didn't know what to do with myself.

Malcolm Stern: 19:07

Well, interestingly, you probably took the skills that you had learned in the process of acting and and working that way into into your therapeutic journey. I know for myself I wanted to be an actor when I was young um I remember being off.

Malcolm Stern: 19:24

I was offered a part in Lindsay Anderson's If and three was three months off school and they wouldn't let me take the time off school and I was so rebellious after that because I wanted to be an actor. But I think somehow what I've done by becoming a therapist is is also by creating a stage, an environment, where I'm not acting, I'm not sort of pretending, but I am keeping that stage in a way that I I've has always been inside me and I I hear something kindred in you, russell, yes, yes I'm just coming up for me, I'm just remembering a time at the jail, the evening before group, I reset the chairs out ready for group in the morning.

Russell Byrne: 20:07

I remember walking out the door, looking at back at the chairs in the circle with nobody in them yet and feeling a thrill of the unexpected, what's going to happen. And I and we was meant to teach from manuals. You know, they gave us these awful manuals which I never opened. To be quite honest, I hope nobody ever listens, but I just decided to ditch it and go in there completely unprepared, unstructured, and just see what came into the room and really value everyone. It was thrilling for me and for them, and it was very different for them. They weren't used to that kind of thing. They could be who they wanted to be, they could swear if they wanted, they could talk about their crimes, they could bring their shame. Everything was well. That was kind of permitted in there. They did see it did something. It created this beautiful vulnerability and intimacy between men who had never had it before. A lot of them never had, didn't have fathers, didn't have, weren't able to express anything positive toward another man other than hatred and violence.

Malcolm Stern: 21:06

Um, it's an honor what you brought, russell, that you brought a place of acceptance, and it feels like anything, and I feel like that as a therapist myself that actually it's like if I'm ever sitting in judgment I'm off. I'm off my center. Actually, if you become an environment which clearly you were in the prisons, um, you have the capacity to do. If you come in an environment where judgment is not in that, in the framework, when you're in role, when you're doing your your thing, um, yes, it's recognized. You see, a lot of what's said is you're teaching my grandmother stuck eggs here, but a lot of what this is not spoken, but actually it's not the spoken word. It's the sort of sense of a capacity to stay present in the face of quite difficult material.

Russell Byrne: 21:54

Yes, Well, there was one inmate that was a sex offender from a long long way back, everybody hated him.

Russell Byrne: 22:01

No one would work with him and I never used to read the case notes. I never saw the point. I wanted to be fresh when I went in and with him I don't know why I did read his file Very sad, shocking stuff the whole thing and I thought how can I go in there now and be nonjudgmental? And yet I went in there, sat in front of him and I had no judgment. I was quite surprised at that capacity to kind of, even though I knew what you, I knew what he'd done, I could still feel a deep connection to him. I don't know, it was just. That was a wonderful experience as well and we got on very well.

Malcolm Stern: 22:42

I mean, he trusted me, he opened up a lot to me and that's the thing is that you, you became a safe environment where nothing was safe for him presumably to watch back all the time, and so, yeah, became probably in loco parentis in some ways something of a father to him yeah, I think so.

Russell Byrne: 23:03

I remember one guy, one guy hugging me once and he and he was saying I've never hugged a man in my life, even my father, and I felt incredible honor to be given that. To be that, what, that one? If you like?

Malcolm Stern: 23:16

if you like, yeah and obviously something was recognized. Have you just worked with, with um, with men, or have you worked with women as well?

Russell Byrne: 23:24

in rehabs I work with women, but mainly it's been, it's been men mainly.

Malcolm Stern: 23:28

Yes, I really like, I, just I like working with men so did you go through a formal training to become a therapist, or just you sort of morphed across from acting to therapy? What, what's, what's? What was the the road you took?

Russell Byrne: 23:45

I did a diploma and get into the diploma. I'm just finishing a graduate diploma now, so I'm kind of doing the academic side of it, but really for me it's more about developing compassion and I do that through my Buddhist practice. I do that through engaging with the men, always trying to question myself if I feel any judgment. So I believe it's really important to continually work on yourself. So the academic stuff is OK, it's OK. It hasn't made me I don't feel it's made me any better. I think what's?

Russell Byrne: 24:22

made me better is just being with people who I maybe don't want to be with and discovering that I can be with them through my own, you know, if that makes sense.

Malcolm Stern: 24:33

Well, it feels like your practice is really to be an open book, wherever you are, regardless of the circumstances, and the thing of hate the sin but love the sinner, and so this is what I'm looking at with with the, the sexual um um offender who was there yes, that actually you met him in his humanity, rather than yes, oh, he is a sex offender, and then he's got that that sort of persona on him yeah, exactly and probably no one had met him in his humanity in the whole time he'd been in jail.

Russell Byrne: 25:09

I don't think so. Yeah, everyone hated him. Even the sex offender program wouldn't go and see him. Yes, I mean it's a shocking thing, and now I've gone there's nobody else there, so it's very sad, I think.

Malcolm Stern: 25:26

And I said, some kindredness between us as well. I think that when I did my training and humanistic psychology and all the various things I did, I felt like my training never began till the first client that I saw and then didn't really take off until the first group I ran and then, yes, I learned on the job and it's yes, I think it's very important to have the basics so we know where the tram lines are. But if we work through manuals and you talked about not manual if we work, we become automatons. And I think there's something about if you're with a therapist who is giving you the right answers, who is giving you the right answers?

Malcolm Stern: 26:08

Yes, it seems as if someone of mine was doing who's a therapist, was actually sort of went on to AI and did a pretend therapy session with AI as the therapist and it was so stilted. I'm sure it will improve as well, but it was so stilted. It felt like the AI could sort of you know was affirming him and was doing all the right things. But the soul there and I'm sensing that you bring your, your soul into your work I really like to think I do yeah, I can remember the first time I watched Carl Rogers on a video and I thought that's.

Russell Byrne: 26:42

That's the kind of therapist I'd like to be. I was really overwhelmed with the intimacy and the vulnerability of him.

Malcolm Stern: 26:51

Yes, now, funnily enough, russell, actually that's what inspired me as well when I first started. Really, I was watching Carl Rogers on video. Seeing this is my sort of man, whereas I can watch a very brilliant therapist who's got all the right answers and who's intellectually profound and has passed a lot of exams, and I actually feel cold at that, because if the heart's in it, we know it somehow, don't we?

Russell Byrne: 27:17

That's exactly right. Yeah, yeah, and the reason I got in touch with you in the first place after watching a wonderful webinar, you did because when you talked about love in the the work and people don't talk about that hardly you never hear that, but you talk when you said it, I thought this is exactly the kind of person I want to talk to, because I totally agree.

Russell Byrne: 27:39

I think I know it's a banded around word and very difficult to talk about what it really means, but I think, if you, if you boil everything down, for me it's about that and developing my capacity to love more I just think it's incredibly important.

Malcolm Stern: 27:56

I think for me it's the bedrock of therapy. Actually, if we don't bring that loving heart to our practice, then we can bring our brilliance, but brilliance will only take you a certain distance. The subject you talked about was that place of trust that God established. Yes, it wouldn't have been your words, it would have been a sense of feeling accepted. It would have been your words as well, as long as the words were transmissions, as long as the words weren't mealy-mouthed. Yes, yeah, so I'm glad.

Russell Byrne: 28:31

I never read the manual.

Malcolm Stern: 28:32

Yeah good. Yes, I haven't read many manuals either, and people keep suggesting that I recommend books to them to help them with their therapeutic practice, and for me, what you've described is doing the work through your Buddhist practice. Yes, I think that's very finely aligned with the therapeutic work.

Russell Byrne: 28:52

Yes.

Malcolm Stern: 28:53

And in fact, when I wrote my book Slay your Dragons With Compassion, I asked Lama Chimmy Rinpoche to give me an endorsement. He was someone I'd met a few times and what he said is this is basic Buddhism. I didn't consider myself I mean, I have a real affinity to Buddhism. If I look around my flat I can see quite a lot of Buddhist images, but I didn't think of myself particularly as a Buddhist. But I think that philosophy has also impacted on my work.

Russell Byrne: 29:22

Yeah, I mean I never tried to. I never really spoke about my Buddhism to the inmates, but there were times they asked me about it and there were times they would meditate with me. So there was something in that as well. I would chant and they would chant with me, that kind of thing, which is just again. I was constantly overwhelmed by their ability and their willingness to go into an unknown place.

Malcolm Stern: 29:52

So you were treading an untrodden path and they were willing to tread it with you. So in some ways, you created a neural pathway, not just you, but for you and the people that you were working with. You opened a line of inquiry. That was there. That's right, yeah, so, uh, it's been a really great dialogue, russell, I'm really, really glad that you contacted me and and and.

Malcolm Stern: 30:18

Thank you going to hear about your, your journey and and we're coming towards the end of it now, but yeah is um, um. The question I always ask people at the end of the dialogue is what's the particular dragon you've had to slay in order to become who you are, and by that I mean what's the hurdle you've had to overcome?

Russell Byrne: 30:47

I don't think I've overcome it. I think it's going to be constant battle for me, this sense of just my own worth, really recognising my own worth, recognising that I have something precious to give. I think, and sometimes I feel it and sometimes I don't. It's an in and out kind of process for me, but it's not about financial gains, certainly not about academic stuff. For me, it's about really, um, finding a sense of pride in myself, I think, a sense of value in myself and knowing that I can create value is that enough answer?

Malcolm Stern: 31:29

I hear the humility in that and I think there's a very fine line between um, the place of arrogance where it's. Yeah, I love myself but, and that place of gradually and I think this is the key isn't it that that we evolve into what we're going to become? The grand, yes, you found a way to love yourself and in so doing, you're able to love others, and I think that that's beautiful it's archetypal and clear I wonder, I wonder if there'll ever be a time when one gets to that destination fully.

Russell Byrne: 32:02

I don't know, and I maybe, maybe one shouldn't in a way well, it's a.

Malcolm Stern: 32:07

There's a great song by more cheevers that just enjoy the ride. Um, yes, and I think there is something about the journey is what's important? I don't think. I don't think we ever get to the destination where we are unless we're a dalai lama or unless we're a gandhi or or or in those lines.

Malcolm Stern: 32:23

I don't think we ever arrive, but I think the the process of becoming is. Is that in itself as well, and you're on a journey, as I'm on a journey, as the people who are watching this podcast are going to be on a journey, and I think we encourage each other with the stories from our journey as well. Yes, absolutely. So thank you for sharing, thank you.

Russell Byrne: 32:47

It's been amazing to see you and talk to you. Really appreciate your time, thank you it's great, russell.

Malcolm Stern: 32:52

Thank you very much indeed, cheers okay bye-bye.