Malcolm Stern: 0:47

Welcome to my podcast, Slay Your Dragons with Compassion. And we've had lots of great guests on this podcast. It's about how we thrive through adversity and and how it helps shape who we are and shape how we live our lives. I'm very happy today to have a wonderful guest, Andrew Querdon. And uh uh Andrew, I I've I've danced with Andrew, and he is an extremely special man. He brings something extraordinary to that process. And it's like when something's in your blood and you have no choice but to follow it, then you follow it and then you become a master at it. And that's what I've watched Andrew become. And it's not easy growing up, presumably, in a South African household um where you're you're being sort of um not very it's not very macho to be a dancer, is it really? That's that sort of environment. So let's start there with you, Andrew, and let's see how it was in your childhood.

Andrew Cuerden: 1:44

Well, firstly, thank you, Malcolm, for inviting me onto your podcast. It's a real on-end privilege and uh great to see you again. Um I guess, yes, uh growing up in South Africa uh as a boy um had its challenges. That said, I think I was very blessed with the parents that I had in the sense that um they, you know, there were certain, I guess, um um what's the word, uh culture and but also time, you know, uh sort of almost sometimes Victorian kind of upbringing. So there was a very strong discipline. My dad was a uh you know in the military, um, and my mom was a jack of all trace, but but they were very loving, you know, and I guess they wanted me happy. So um I think uh when when I turned around and said, Mom, can you can you take me to borrown dancing lessons? I think she probably nearly fell over because my brother was sort of first team rugby. Um, and again, it wasn't sort of the usual thing that a boy does. But you know, they they were happy for me to follow my my dreams, and that's always been the case. So I've been very blessed. Um I think my dad um took a little well, he actually did a bit of dancing when he was in England, you know. He he was born in in Eastbourne and grew up in in the West Country, and uh and I think um dancing back in in the sort of early 1940s was was common ground, you know, every that's where people met their other hearts. So it wasn't that foreign to him. Um but I think he he later on when I got a bit more serious about the dancing, he probably did fear that maybe that wasn't the path my career should take. You know, I could do as a bit of fun, but not something I should take seriously. Um so yeah, it was it it was more tough at school. School and and the general public is where I took most of the flack. Yeah.

Malcolm Stern: 3:25

And of course, you you were on strictly come dancing, which is a sort of like, you know, definitely a sort of a gold standard sort of mark for you that actually you recognize as someone who really was a very skilled dancer. But that's what that that journey will have taken you to from there to there, would have taken you a whole lot, I reckon, as well. So what's what's happened in your life that sort of has has challenged you as a dancer or has has evoked you or evolved you as a dancer?

Andrew Cuerden: 3:53

Well, I guess you know, there's two things that we have in life. There's either something that draws you forward and something that pushes you. Were you running away from or you're running to? Um, and I guess when I decided um, you know, when I when I was leaving school that I wanted to pursue my dancing career, and I gave my parents were like, they weren't too happy about that. And um, but I tried the the tertiary education, but you know, growing up in in the time I was in South Africa, you know, we were just coming out of apartheid. Uh the country was in incredible turmoil. Um, and so the the tertiary education just became a a no no starter. Anyway, I did one or two years of that. Um, and then my passion and my dream is always to be a professional dancer. So I eventually persuaded my parents to uh enable me to um use my British passport um and and come to England. And so I left um South Africa at the age of 20 with 500 pounds and a week travel card, not really knowing what was going to happen to me. Um, but I guess I had enough um, well, certainly enough ignorance or naivety of youth um and I guess a certain level of courage, but I guess I had a deep faith um in how life I don't know, I guess I was watching my parents growing up, you know, and they both had stoicism and sort of real resilience um from their sort of own sort of cultural backgrounds, but also my mum particularly had a very strong sort of spiritual faith, um, and I was brought up in that. So, you know, I always felt like, as my mom would say, you know, legions of angels would be going with me. And I always felt that no matter what happened, I would be okay. So that was kind of my my um, I guess, faith. And so I came over and yeah, it was really, really tough. Uh there was no real support system that my parents you know, didn't have uh much money. So I was kind of like, okay, this is it. You make or break, you've got to make this work. Um and I guess, you know, when when you're young and you're in your 20s, you kind of just do go with the flow. Um, you don't sort of have the the heaviness sometimes of maturity to kind of worry about all the things that could go wrong.

Malcolm Stern: 6:01

Um you don't have all the responsibilities as well, do you? So that's that's helps.

Andrew Cuerden: 6:05

Yeah. You know, and oh my god, you know, going from a small town uh and coming to the big bad city of London, you know, I remember arriving after it would it took me, I think, um 36 hours or 48 hours door to door to get from my home uh in in South Africa to a hostel in Victoria, London. Um and I remember sitting on the bed at about nine o'clock in the morning in a bunk room, you know, with six other people and listening to the roar of London and going, what the hell have you done? You know, you idiot. Um I'll be here three weeks and I'm gonna go home. Um anyway, I you know, um I just followed my nose, followed my passion, you know, and fairly soon I plugged into a dance world um and within, I don't know, a couple of months had a dance partner, and and off I was off I went. And the dancing community in a way became my family. Um, which has its ups and downs and ins and outs, but um, we might get there later. But um, and then it was just it's always been, I guess, follow follow your passion, but lead with love. You know, that's kind of been my motto throughout life. Um, and then, you know, I competed for about uh 15, 20 years, uh, through as an amateur, uh, so representing England and then uh internal professional life where we represented Finland. And we were top two in Finland because my partner was Finnish at that time. Um and we danced together for nine years. Uh and part of that was yeah, being um accepted as dancers on the third series of Straily Come Dancing. So everyone was still learning about what that was all about. You know, we we were a little apprehensive of how the BBC had portrayed ballroom dancing in the past. It had kind of been very sort of old-fashioned and sort of what your you know what your granny does on a Sunday afternoon in a pleated skirt. But, you know, so we were a bit aware of this new program and and we really didn't know how it was going to turn out. But you know, again, we took a chance. Um and it was a yeah, it was a life-changing experience. Um, but it certainly wasn't so sort of one sense the pinnacle of my career. Uh the pinnacle of my career was, I guess, you know, being ranked top 24 in the world as a professional Latin American dancer, dancing at the Royal Albert Hall, because there you're you're validated by your peers. Um, you know, it's you know, being on Taily is one thing, but it's not always, you know, doesn't always feel like it's your best dancing, you know.

Malcolm Stern: 8:32

And um what what what uh hurdles did you encounter during this time? Because these things never go smoothly, do they? We find our path and then we get little things coming our path that can trip us up. What particularly happened to you along the way?

Andrew Cuerden: 8:46

I think I I've always been a quite a sensitive person. Um and you know, London in itself is quite a you know a tough city. Any big city is tough. Then you add on the competitive dance world, which is very uh ego-based, it's very competitive by nature, um, and so it's hard to make trains, you know, and to to be seen. And and then, you know, it's uh it's also financially very tough, you know, it's an expensive sport. Um, and so you're juggling work and dance life. Um, and you're constantly questioning is this the right path for me? You know, should I just you know get a proper job?

Malcolm Stern: 9:28

Um I think the time I realized you were you were in one of my groups, which was I was lovely having you in there as well. Um, and you you danced. And and it was like I was reminded of watching Rudolf Nurev dancing. I'm not saying you are exactly the same as it, but it was almost like I could see that every part of your body was thoroughly engaged. It's like here we are, sort of trying to sort of do our little move here and there as you know, as uh as people who are you know warming up in a group. And here's you who's able to sort of to fly, in fact. And it's almost like we can't deny our calling and that's thing. But there are, as you say, hurdles. And there are things like financials. So it's like, you know, you can be a musician, you can be a really good musician, but never really make enough to to get by because you haven't quite hit the big time. And did you quite hit the big time or what happened for you?

Andrew Cuerden: 10:20

I guess for a short time, uh, you know, one week did strictly, um, all of a sudden, you know, going from a very poor sort of artist dancer, you know, finding for once in my life, I I had, you know, um money in the bank. Uh, we could go on holidays, you could buy clothes, you know, and kind of live a more normal life, get a decent place to live. Um, and you know, yeah, it w it was great. Um, but you know, it's it's a it's an interesting this adversity. We talk about in the dance world, like the fire in the belly, you know, the hung the hungry. The hungry person is the most creative. And it's and it's interesting when suddenly and watching you know other dances in that environment and how very quickly when you have all the comforts of modern living, your creativity and your sense of drive. Um I guess, you know, is it then the drive to make money or is it the drive to be creative? You know, and I guess that creative spirit, that's that's the challenge, I guess.

Malcolm Stern: 11:20

I think it's probably more than that as well, because I'm just as you're speaking, I'm thinking about when I was really hungry as a therapist, sort of having to really get out there, be creative to sort of to find ways of operating. And it's almost like it's quite easy to to find a plateau where you're functioning perfectly well, but you're not firing on all cylinders. And so I think that the challenge is really how do we carry on firing all cylinders? It's not just about the money, because I know that's that's one thing, of course, but it's about keeping that that creativity fresh and alive. Well, it it's it is that sense of aliveness, and and I I guess the place where I feel most of that is on the dance floor. Um, and and also, you know, it's the relationship with other. You know, I guess I fell in love with boring dancing or partner dancing because I guess I've I've for some reason, ever since I was a small child, I've I've been a romantic at heart. I I love the energy between people um and how do we exchange energy in whatever way, whether it's through talking or dancing or whatever. And um, that that's been the fascination for me. And I think that's why I've sort of moved now more towards the coaching and the therapeutic aspect, because I'm really fascinated about how do we connect with another. Um, and that's what I guess was always the driving force. I mean, no matter how poor or rich or um what what was happening on my life, that connection to other, the the unity, the harmony that can create, and we flying together around the dance floor in harmony is it was yeah, it was this my soul food. And I suppose um it must have been tricky sometimes because there's a there's a danger of actually sort of like a thinking that this is your sole partner as you sort of find this perfect rhythm together and you fall in love and then you realize that perhaps this you don't have a lot in common, but you know how to move together.

Andrew Cuerden: 13:08

Yeah. No, that's a very interesting uh thing, Malcolm. And and this is sometimes where, you know, I don't know if you've heard of the strictly curse, you know, this this issue that's you know, where the celebrities have been falling for the professionals. Um and uh my my belief around this is if you are coming into a dancing environment and you have cracks in your own personal relationship, the dancing will bust it open wide. It will it will show everything up because you know dancing is by nature very emotional, it's very passionate, uh, it's very close. Um, but what sometimes non-dancers forget or don't appreciate is that the professionals, we we almost don't, without sounding kind of cold, we don't actually sometimes see you as a person. We see you as a body. We're worried about the choreography, the timing, where we're on the dance floor, you know, where you know the last kind of thing sometimes is like, okay, what is our personal relationship? You know, we're there as business people, as professionals, to create a story. We're actors. And and non-dancers sometimes get caught up in the act and they think it's real. Um, and then there's kind of dynamics. And then obviously, if the professionals are out of their integrity um and they have issues in their personal lives, then yes, there there is the you know, the potential for I guess it is easy to fall for glamour, and I think there's something of glamour in dancing, isn't there?

Malcolm Stern: 14:31

That's um um I I remember sort of when I was a long, long time ago when I was at a five rhythms dance class, and I had this perfect rhythm. I don't have perfect rhythm, I can promise you that would have seen, but I had this perfect rhythm with this woman, and we danced like it was almost like every move was it felt like magic and perfect. And so I um said to her, let's let's meet up and have go and have dinner sometime. So we went and had dinner. We had nothing to say to each other. So we had perfect harmony on the floor, but actually, in terms of of our psyches, they didn't match at all. But it's very easy to override that, isn't it?

Andrew Cuerden: 15:10

When you're well, it was part of the work I sometimes do with my couples, you know, with my relationship coaching, is that when there are issues on the intellectual level, um, on the sort of uh yeah, the the cognitive mind, um, we we remove the speech, we even remove the sight. You know, we get them to close their eyes and connect physically and find that harmony through their bodies. And if we can somehow find that common ground and moving together slowly, there is a possibility that we can also find a way through the intellectual. But first we need to connect on the level of awareness and presence. Um, so and and and it doesn't yeah, it doesn't always mean it translates through, but um it is fascinating.

Malcolm Stern: 15:54

Yeah, so um so right now you've you've you've moved from being a dancer, which you still are obviously, but but also that that you've you've gone into other realms of actually trying to take that work into newer arenas. I wonder how that's panning out for you.

Andrew Cuerden: 16:11

Um, well, you know, I guess it's it's a journey. Every day is a school day. Um sense that, you know, uh really feeling into who is it that I really want to help? Who who do I resonate? Who's gonna resonate with the work I do? Um, and I guess my unique mix of I guess being um a man, um moving in the coaching therapy world as a dancer is quite sort of relatively unique. Um and I guess so I you know, it's it's it's it's just constantly doing the work for myself. How am I relating to other? How am I showing up in my presence? You know, I I a few years ago it came to me that you're not you're not paying me for what I know, you're paying me for my presence and my patience and my passion. You know, how do I hold space for people, no matter who they are or what they're going through. Um, and then I allow the dance and the music um to do most of the work. And then, like yourself, Malcolm, you you sit and you bear witness and you invite people to come up with their own insights, their own questions, their own answers. Um, so I guess I'm I'm I'm learning to hold space as skillfully as possible and let the music and dancing do the work.

Malcolm Stern: 17:28

That's fantastic. And holding space is a real art as well. So I've I've watched that when I'm I'm teaching regularly at Skiros, which you've also been to, um, which is a holistic holiday center. And and you can see the people who know how to hold the space, whether they be dancers or yoga teachers or um artists or well, um swimming instructors, some people really know how to hold space. And I think that's an art we don't really understand. Um, but it's it's a place where things can change with no putting out of boards yet.

Andrew Cuerden: 18:02

Well, you know, it's been interesting how I've you know spent the first half of my life filling space, you know, being on stage. Look at me, look at me, you know, kind of thing, and standing in front of the mirror and making sure that I, you know, look how I uh think I should look. And and now I've almost flipped the mirror around. Or I'm using the mirror in a much different way. Um and now it's all about yeah, holding, holding space. And there's always a dance, you know. I talk about in every moment in life we are either leading andor following, you know, um, and have the awareness of when you are what what is required in the moment. Are you required here to hold space, um, to to uh to lead and to um facilitate, or are you meant to to yeah, sort of um follow and fill space? You know, it's it's it's such a isn't somewhat a binary thing, it's a sort of a free-flowing space. But but yeah, it's really interesting to observe that in me. Um, you know, and I think ultimately we all want to be seen and heard, um, ultimately and loved and appreciated. You know, and if we can create spaces where people feel that way, then that's half the job in a way.

Malcolm Stern: 19:12

Yeah, I guess that's true. And it's also you I mean you've got a long-term partner uh um who's not a dance partner, she's a she's well be a dance partner as well, but but that's not her primary function, and you've got this organization soul hub that you've created together. And I'm wondering how uh is that when you're in uh dancing with someone and there's a there's a magical rhythm, there's that powerful connection. I wonder how that impacts in terms of jealousy and difficulty in relationship. If it does.

Andrew Cuerden: 19:43

Absolutely. Um, you know, and this has been, and I hope I'm just feeling into whether what I share here. Um, you know, I guess when when car when I met Carmen, you know, she's not a dancer. Um and she would watch me either in a a competition or working with with a men and you know, the work I do is quite intimate, quite physically, you know, close. Um, you know, it was a it was a struggle for her, and it is a struggle for non-dancers because they don't they don't kind of appreciate what I was talking about before about we're we're working on the mechanical aspects of the dance. You know, we're not in the emotional aspect of it. We're we're holding space for the people that we're dancing with. Um you know, I think, and and the more I've and so the dance that Carmen and I have been dancing is, and maybe it's a it's a it's a typical masculine-feminine thing, not male-female, but masculine-feminine is the masculine wants freedom and the feminine wants connection. And so we've been having this sort of to and fro dance. Um, and the lesson I've I guess learned with with my partner is that the more I've committed to her, the more I've invested time in in dancing with her and again making her feel seen and loved and appreciated. And then she's able to allow me the freedom to do more of dancing and and and dancing with other women and doing what I what I you know love to do. And and that's the dance. Um but I think you know, the the one of the teachings that I teach through my partner dancing is that there has to be a commitment to the relationship, to the center. If you connect to the center, to the core of the relationship, you can then and this is even in a physical thing, if you're holding someone, you can then stretch out, you can lean out, you can support each other, but you have to have a commitment to that, that those connecting hands. If you if that connecting hand um is uh chaotic, um insecure or inconsistent, then the person on the other side of that hand is gonna feel unsafe. So if you can really hold that center and say, I've got you, I'm not gonna go anywhere, but I'm gonna stretch out over here and have some, you know, like I want to I want to reach out and see what I can touch on the other side, um, they'll let you. But if if there's any wobble or any inconsistency of connection, then that's the thing. So it's it's what we call sort of eccentric stretching in a muscular way, but it's also in a relationship way of stretching in two directions. You're stretching towards the person that you are committed to, but you can also then grow and stretch in other areas of your life. So that's the lesson we're learning.

Malcolm Stern: 22:20

It's lovely. And I remember, you know, when I was first practicing as a psychotherapist, and and I was starting to sort of weave some magic because you clearly weave some magic. I suddenly became overnight much more attractive to women. And um, and I thought, oh well, I must be amazing. But actually, it was it was a bit of a journey to sort of travel on to realize that actually that that what they were drawn to was the projection of what I did rather than who I was. And sort of it was difficult for me to go home to my wife and children and not be adored. And I wonder if you let go.

Andrew Cuerden: 22:53

Well, I mean, that's that's also been a journey for me recently, you know. Most of my life, um, like you know, you said very kindly, you know, I've become a master. And yes, on one hand, but that's also an egoic trip. You know, I remember saying to Carmen about a year ago, you know, um, as we're now building a business and I'm moving into different things, excuse me, and becoming a bit of a jack of all trades, you know, having to run your own business, you've got to do lots of different things. And um, and that's been a challenge of, you know, um diversifying and um and I remember getting like, well, I'm a you know, I don't want to be a jackpot, I want to be a master at something, you know, because I want to be applauded, I want to be appreciated, and not just be like, well, you know, and it's been a real journey to be um to be okay, just being normal, just being me. How can I walk down the street and be of value? How can I walk down the street and just be my fullest self? And that's all I need to do. My my worth is not my work. Um, and and to remove this egoic need to stand out, you know?

Malcolm Stern: 23:54

Yeah.

Andrew Cuerden: 23:55

Um yeah.

Malcolm Stern: 23:56

Yeah, when I talk about the uh the mastery, I'm I'm I'm very I'm very guided by Malcolm Gladwell's book, The Outliers, in which he says if you do something for you'll know this, if you do something for 10,000 hours, you become a master at it. And you've probably done your 10,000 hours and plus plus plus. And there's something about if you've kept going, the something in you would have been moulded in that in that place as well. And um I'm wondering how you see it going in the future. Where do you where do you see your dance work going in the future?

Andrew Cuerden: 24:26

Oh Malcolm, um, I guess I would just love to to do more and more work with people through what I call metaphysical dance. It's my sort of modality, it's it's the therapeutic um dance through partner dancing. I guess there is a lot of therapeutic dance, but it's primarily sort of you know your five rhythms, your ecstatic dance, your more free-flowing stuff. And I guess the work that I bring to the dance therapy world is is one where it's it's based on the um mechanics, the principles of dance. You know, what is balance, you know, what is alignment, what is uh structure and flow, um lead and follow, all these kind of principles that a professional dancer employs are exactly the same uh principles that we employ in life. So um, yeah, I wanted to continue developing this, um, uh running workshops. Obviously, uh Carmen and I are looking at doing something around the art of relating um with couple work using dance and psychotherapy. Um but also love to do more public speaking on it, um and uh you know, more retreats, people couples can come away or individuals can come away and and explore how dance can really animate and um be um be a lens, be a lens to see themselves in a different in a different angle and different light. And then you know, that's my personal work, and then obviously Carmen and I run Soul Hub. And Soul Hub is is an ever-evolving community, um, and we're learning how to hold and create community, and that's a whole nother challenge in today's world of uh digital platforms and social media and what other new rules of engagement and of dancing with the public, as it were. Um, but I guess ultimately we both we we see ourselves as as bridges of worlds, of connecting the dots, of bringing people people together and gathering, whether it be whether it's to our dancing that we do, outdoor dancing in the community, whether it's through our soul walking, you know, walking in nature, um, or whether it's just one-to-one, you know, coaching. You know, we want to bring people together in harmony. And I think we are very passionate about integration and the unity through diversity. You know, how can we learn from each other rather than it's them against us? It's them with us. How can we together create a better world? And that's what we really feel quite passionate about now. Um, so how do we break down the divisions? How do we bring people together? And dance for me is one of the most beautiful ways of doing that. The universal language of music and dance. So that's I think somewhere somewhere in that direction, and we are doing it, but I I want to do more of that.

Malcolm Stern: 27:07

Yes. And um, do you still get a joy from from sort of like I I've watched you sort of like get into the rhythm and suddenly you're taking off like a like a wild sort of sprite. Um and and I wonder if you still get a joy from it, because I think that's the place where we've got to watch. If that joy disappears, then something needs to be upgraded and uplifted.

Andrew Cuerden: 27:30

Yeah, uh Malcolm, to be honest. Um, it is like anyone's practice, it's it's one that I I need to I need to invest more in and why I've made a sort of decision to stop my weekly social group classes, um, so that I can spend more time investing in my own dancing, um, exploring other types of dance. Uh and because it is, it is the the the um the joy in my blood, you know, my veins, as you said before. Uh, and you know, when life gets tough, and you know, we're I've been away for the summer, and you know, we're both self-employed, so it's you know, the cash flow can can be tricky, but you can't get sucked into the fear of that and the the belief and and limitation in lack. You've got to go out and and do the things that bring you joy. And and and again, it's like that eccentric stretching. You've got to commit to your work, but also you've got to stretch out and find the joy. And feeds one feeds the other. Um, so yes, definitely. I um uh I'm keen to get out and do more dance film for myself, because I think that's something I have neglected over the last few years uh whilst building the business. And I guess deep diving deeper into the the psychotherapeutic aspect of it um and and holding space for other people. I need to hold space for myself now a little bit more, I think.

Malcolm Stern: 28:46

Yeah, I think that's really important. And um I think that as we as we get older, I mean what I've what I've discovered as I'm now in my doted show not quite, but on the way, um, is that I I no longer want to do I don't want to want to do work that doesn't come from my soul. I will have to to sort of you know balance it that there's some work you do because it's well paid, there's other work you do because it's uh it speaks to you, and then there's work you do that actually lights your fire. Yeah. And so I do these podcasts and and they are um it's fascinating engaging with people, getting underneath what goes on for people. Yeah, and and for me that's not all it's not about always about earning money, but you're at a different stage in your life, so you've got to you've got to keep it held held together and without actually surrendering your passion.

Andrew Cuerden: 29:38

Yeah, it's uh I I I write about this a lot, you know, that's the sort of the the knife edge, the the polarity, the paradoxical polarity that in every moment we're we're kind of having to to balance on. Um and you know, I I look around and and I you know I see a world that is almost on a kind of like on an on a knife edge, you know. And and like how how do we you know and I think it's one of my core beliefs is that life happens for us, not to us. And I think because that puts me in a place of empowerment. And so if I'm looking at my current situation and the global situation, is like, okay, how what how am I becoming in this? It's not what do I do, but who am I becoming in the process? Is it softening me? Is it making me wiser, more empath uh empathic? Is it making me, you know, a better person, or is it making me scared, bitter, and twisted, resentful, cynical, you know? And so that's the constant check in how. Am I responding? How am I being of service to myself and to others? So yeah, it's it's it's an everything, you know, it's it's a holographic universe. You know, how we do one thing is generally how we do most things.

Malcolm Stern: 30:59

Yeah.

Andrew Cuerden: 30:59

So it's a constant um self-reflection and cleaning cleaning what's a cleaning the window, is it? Is that yeah, it's not the right thing.

Malcolm Stern: 31:09

Oh so we're coming towards the end of our of our chat and our podcast, but I there's always a question I ask people who are that who do these with me, which is what's the particular dragon you've had to slay or hurdle you've had to overcome in order to be who you are? Um what's what's what's what's the thing you you wrestled with or are still wrestling with?

Andrew Cuerden: 31:34

I think it's self-worth. You know, I uh as a child, I grew up, I was the baby of the family by a long shot. And as I've mentioned earlier, you know, my parents were loving, um, but very it was very disciplined, very authoritarian and and a lot of discipline. And and so you really didn't have much of a voice, you know, or an opinion. Um, and you just did what you were told. Um and and also in the schooling, you know, it was very strict. And and I think to kind of feel that I have the freedom to be who I want to be, um, despite the fact that I've lived this life, and maybe that's one of the reasons why I ran away and I escaped, you know, dancing gave me that permission to be more of who I wanted to be. And and and so um I think it's still that um that edge for me to be my fullest unashamed self, you know, and not worry about, you know, even in the dance world, you know, you constantly worry about what people think of you because it's you know, dancing, unfortunately, not a sport, it's a subjective arena where is whether people like you or not, whether you get the ball on the hole. Um so you're constantly sort of looking over your shoulder, going, oh, you know, uh, am I am I doing the right thing at the right time? Um so breaking that mold, um, and and yeah, I guess being being my true self. That that's and I I feel that's for everyone, you know, we're all put into molds, and and it's to break the mold and to be who we who we're meant to be.

Malcolm Stern: 33:04

Well, and I think you're fortunate that that you know that it's from an early age, life showed you what your particular potential was, and that you've you've you know enhanced that and you're working with that, and you're having to work with other things as well, so to round yourself. So um thank you very much for coming with us today. It's been really, really good talking to you as ever. And um yeah, look forward to to further conversations.

Andrew Cuerden: 33:28

Amazing. Thank you so much. Thank you for being uh amazing host.

Malcolm Stern: 33:32

Thank you, Andrew. Much appreciated.